Author Topic: Goes a Glader need an fmic?  (Read 10222 times)

Offline Justin14100

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Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« on: January 12, 2010, 02:13:33 pm »
Just looking at a bmw intercooler from a 318, just wondering if the G lader needs a bigger front mount, cause they dont make much heat so would it make any noticable difference?

Thanks!

Offline Puncharado

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 08:20:52 pm »
I checked this out when I had the R1 charger done, with chip and 65mm pulley, these and air filter were only mods with boost recirc plumbed correctly. I put thermocouples in the charger outlet, and engine inlet before the throttle body. With normal driving the engine inlet temp was not much higher than the ambient air, charger not working too hard and outlet temps were around 60°C. When driving hard charger outlet temp wasn't getting much higher than 100°C with engine inlet temp around 30-35°C. It shows how efficient the std charge air cooler is, and is why I decided not to change it (in my opinion the boost recirc mod and fitment of a catch tank will have little effect on charger outlet temps - just opinion I have no evidence to prove either way).
The company I work for manufactures automotive heat exchangers for OEM's. We have test facilities for these, including a performance wind tunnel, one of the boys tested mine (back in '02 I think) and said it was very, very good for it's size. I have the data for this if anyone wants it.
Obviously turbo engines are a different kettle of fish.

Offline hayesey

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 08:40:58 pm »
I think the stock IC is probably ok with the 40mm G-Lader yeah.  Cetainly not really up to th job with a bigger charger, eaton or turbo though.  Well, depends how much power you plan on running.

Offline Justin14100

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 08:44:11 pm »
Just found a cheap front mount thats all, not planning on chasing power but on an R1 with toothies would it make a noticeable difference? would it pull harder ect? cause my intercooler when driving around off boost gets cold, but driving hard it gets pretty warm, just keep wondering with a bigger intercooler how much colder it would be, and if that would make it much / any better?

Offline hayesey

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 08:46:38 pm »
might make a small difference to power on a dyno with a suitable remap (cooler intake temps allow ignition advance) but it's prob not going to be very noticable on road

Offline Justin14100

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 08:51:17 pm »
So better off getting a 51mm throttle body and cleaning my intercooler up good n' proper?

Offline hayesey

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 08:54:54 pm »
and/or saving money towards a remap.  remaps are great

Offline Justin14100

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 09:03:54 pm »
even on just a 65mm and an R1 small bits like that ect?

Offline Puncharado

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 09:28:17 pm »
The other thing with a larger front mount is that it may have a worse pressure drop through it (therefore less boost), but this depends on a lot of factors in addition to charge air temp. Main ones are: -
- fin pitch (how many fins per unit length, generally more fins = better perfomance but is gets to a point where the restriction to the air flow is too great and performance will drop off)
- tube size (bigger tubes have better charge pressure drop but are less thermally efficient)
- turbulator design (basically airways inside the tubes, can either be the profile of an extruded tube or extruded plates stuffed into the tubes). Used to increase the surface area for heat exchange. But like the fins, there is always a compromise.

The std CAC will probably be OK with the boost levels of G lader, higher boost levels can cope with the pressure drop for gains in performance. High boost turbos will benefit quite a bit from a front mount.
If you do decide to change, get the newest one you can. Although the basic design of heat exchangers hasn't really changed for years, newer ones will more than likely have more efficient materials and years of minor improvements. Also beware of cheap aftermarket alloy intercoolers, they may look good but some don't have proper airways (no slits in the fins). Check also the fins are properly brazed to the tubes, poor or non existant bonding will result in shite performance.

Sorry if I've been too wordy but this is actually a subject I know something about!

Offline Justin14100

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 09:38:25 pm »
nah its good to hear someone who knows stuff!

as you cant really get colder than ambient and you said casual driving almost took it to it then it should be fine then tbh!

was looking at a 1996 bmw one on ebay, 2nd hand though. only £35!

Offline Puncharado

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 09:50:24 pm »
I'm still contemplating fitting one when I get the car back together mind. At work we make a couple of different ones for Renault/Dacia Logan, I need to compare the performance data first though to see which one, if any, will be suitable (tanks could be used but custom ally ones welded on will be best). I won't bother if they're only a little better. And unfortunaltely I won't be able to provide any as for anyone as we're only allowed to buy 2 or 3 new units per year.

Offline Puncharado

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 09:56:21 pm »
Also meant to say that if your's isn't at it's best try straightening out the edges of the fins using tweezers. Boring and time consuming, and will make your eyes go funny, but it will help restore airflow though the core and you'll get back a little bit of performance. You'll never straighten all the damaged fins though.

Offline hayesey

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2010, 11:11:18 am »
it'd be a good idea to put your cooler in a parts washer or blast it out with solvent to get rid of the 15+ years worth of gunge that'll be in it.

Very good advice from Puncharado there, do you fancy writing some FAQs on IC and rad tech as you obviously know your stuff.

Offline Varley

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2010, 11:56:36 am »
Good thread.

Sorry if I'm being simple, thermodynamics has always been by engineering achillies heel, but I'm not sure I understand why having a larger intercooler (more volume in boost sysem) would result in lower peak boost?

I can see why it would take longer to build up to full boost as there is a larger volume to fill and this factor would be governed by fin pitch, tube size etc. but once the system is up to pressure assuming no leaks I don't understand why boost pressure is not just a function of charger flow rate and inlet restrictions?

Is it basically the additional 'turbulence' (non laminar flow?) generated by the longer boost system? If this made an appreciable difference from such a small change in volume though what would this mean for transcontinental gas pipelines where gas is moving at pressure across thousands of miles?

Offline Justin14100

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2010, 02:21:18 pm »
Good thread.

Sorry if I'm being simple, thermodynamics has always been by engineering achillies heel, but I'm not sure I understand why having a larger intercooler (more volume in boost sysem) would result in lower peak boost?

I can see why it would take longer to build up to full boost as there is a larger volume to fill and this factor would be governed by fin pitch, tube size etc. but once the system is up to pressure assuming no leaks I don't understand why boost pressure is not just a function of charger flow rate and inlet restrictions?

Is it basically the additional 'turbulence' (non laminar flow?) generated by the longer boost system? If this made an appreciable difference from such a small change in volume though what would this mean for transcontinental gas pipelines where gas is moving at pressure across thousands of miles?

Remember, there will always be the same air, but with more space to fill it would lower boost, but still the same amount of air though, its why GT inlets lower the boost pressure, cause there is more space to fill