Author Topic: Goes a Glader need an fmic?  (Read 10202 times)

Offline djtez

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2010, 04:26:45 pm »
I donno if this helps but if you think of tyres, think of a mini moto tyre? and a full size bmw M3 tyre ( 255/35/19 ) or similar running both at 32P.S.I .
the mini moto tyre takes 3 seconds to fill to 32 psi simply because theres less space even tho its at the same pressure. where as bigger tyre almost ten times longer.

the g lader only supplies same amount of air to the engine all the time but when to extend it and make larger capacities it doesn't quite make same pressure.

Offline Puncharado

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2010, 07:58:14 pm »
Good thread.
Sorry if I'm being simple, thermodynamics has always been by engineering achillies heel, but I'm not sure I understand why having a larger intercooler (more volume in boost sysem) would result in lower peak boost?
I can see why it would take longer to build up to full boost as there is a larger volume to fill and this factor would be governed by fin pitch, tube size etc. but once the system is up to pressure assuming no leaks I don't understand why boost pressure is not just a function of charger flow rate and inlet restrictions?
Is it basically the additional 'turbulence' (non laminar flow?) generated by the longer boost system? If this made an appreciable difference from such a small change in volume though what would this mean for transcontinental gas pipelines where gas is moving at pressure across thousands of miles?
Remember, there will always be the same air, but with more space to fill it would lower boost, but still the same amount of air though, its why GT inlets lower the boost pressure, cause there is more space to fill

Right, I've written a reply for this, but I had to think a lot and I'm not 100% sure everything I have written is correct as I've never studied thermodynamics. My work background has been to do with the evaluation and testing of heat exchangers, mainly environmental and durability, but also some performance testing. I’ve picked up what I know more from practical experience, and from discussing test results with the clever guys at work who really do know this stuff. There is one bloke in particular who has been responsible for CAC development, I will ask him to look over what I've written to make sure it's correct before I post.

Offline Varley

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2010, 09:16:35 pm »

Not questioning that it would take longer to build up (car tyres) or that inlet restrictions will determine peak boost pressure (inlet fannymold) what I'm struggling to understand is why effectively increasing the length of the boost system by adding a larger IC would alter peak boost with all other things being equal.

Puncharado: cheers for taking the time, I look forward to your reply. Might have to bust out the old thermo text book in the meantime though, although it'll probably make as much sense as last time! lol

Offline giorgio

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2010, 09:40:49 pm »
Boost is not a scientific thing. Flowing a head will drop your boost gauge reading but will actually increase power.

You can talk about mass and/or Pressure.

PV=mRT

Pressure x Volume = mass (of air) x 287 (Gas Constant) x Temp

If a bigger IC was fitted then the pressure inside your intake system will fall.
However Temp will also fall.

As a result it will take longer for your system to 'fill up' but when it does it will be colder. Massive intercoolers contribute to 'turbo lag'. One method is to have a smaller exit than intake on the IC.

On the subject - Check out Yoof's boost pipes. Unless hes fiddled recently then he has the old PSD ones which are much better than most.


Offline giorgio

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 09:44:01 pm »
Varley - To answer more directly.

boost is not real. Your boost gauge measures manifold pressure (which is why you have a negative reading sometimes).

And things don't stay they same. They cant. That in itself is thermodynaics.

Offline Puncharado

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2010, 10:56:30 pm »
OK, spoke to a couple of guys at work and I've got a couple of things wrong with the original post that was here, now I've discussed it some seem obvous, others not so. So I've deleted it and will re-write it later, but this time I will get it double checked before I submit as a new post tomorrow.

Sorry to mislead you guys.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 03:15:18 pm by Puncharado »

Offline Etches

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2010, 01:12:13 am »
Banging Thread, the fact that I am studying thermodynamics and seeing it discussed in this context is great  :)

Offline giorgio

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2010, 01:54:16 am »
Banging Thread, the fact that I am studying thermodynamics and seeing it discussed in this context is great  :)

Bless. You still have not found Flowmaster yet  ;D

Offline Etches

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2010, 01:56:13 am »
Just a wind tunnel mate ;)

Offline giorgio

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2010, 12:13:07 pm »
Spill the beans. Where are you?

Offline Yoof

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2010, 04:51:33 pm »
Leave my boost pipes out of this  :P

Unless you're thinking of fitting an intercooler bigger than the surface area of the front end, the 'lag time' change will be insignificant.

For arguments sake the air required to make 170bhp is (very) roughly 500kg/h i.e an utter sh1tload! So the actual mass of air your charger is pumping out would take fractions of a second to fill most intercoolers, when you consider the volume differance between the two, and the mass of air being flowed, the 'lag' time becomes somewhat irrespective.


Offline Jezza-7

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2010, 06:03:45 pm »
This is a good thread and just have a question.

If you leave a standard IC on but want cooler air would getting a aquamist kit help? I know its alot more expensive but dont aquamist kits lower temp as well?

Could always get them other types of intercoolers that arent front mount, charge cooler?

Offline Puncharado

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2010, 06:33:05 pm »
They are all charge air coolers (this is the term most often used by OEM heat exchange manufacturers and the car makers when refering to intercoolers), whether air/air or air/water. In theory water cooled CACs should be more efficient because the thermal coefficient of each fluid is vastly different (don't ask me figures!), so it's easier for water to take heat from the charge air. Air/air coolers are less efficient because even though there is a temp difference between the charge air and cooling air the thermal coefficient is the same. But all this ultimately depends on the design of the core, whether air or water cooled. Water/air CACs are not often used in mass market cars due to cost, packaging, the need for additional plumbing and the cooling water will often need it's own rad. Both normal engine coolant (with auxilliary rad) or stand alone (with seperate rad) supplies can be used.

Water spray kits will certainly help get your charge air colder, it increases the heat exchange in the same as why a wet hand feels colder than a dry hand or why your body sweats to keep you cool, the heat is more effectively removed from the surface.

Offline Jezza-7

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2010, 06:39:20 pm »
Thanks for that, that makes sense. I remember yoof selling a water charge cooler that had its own rad that went cheap but never got the chance to get in contact cause i would love one, but i am gettting an aquamist kit so i might not worry.

Offline Etches

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Re: Goes a Glader need an fmic?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2010, 08:33:12 pm »
Spill the beans. Where are you?

Sheffield University pal