Author Topic: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe  (Read 10298 times)

Offline Jezza-7

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PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« on: June 28, 2011, 11:35:08 pm »
Hi there,

Im going to write a review on the Polo Performance Parts Stage 3 Subframe as i feel that know one on here has wrote one that has experienced the use of a PPS Subframe and the PPP Subframe?

I dont mean to sound bias in any way here as i will be comparing the 2 frames mainly on the design, like strong points, weak points etc and the handling differences and any ways they could have been made better. Please note that im not saying that either one of these companies have stolen ideas as i think that more "old skool" polo parts need to be made as its getting harder these days to come by quality parts and with PPP & PPS helping i think that it can only get better.

For the PPP frame i have used pictures from the forum so i hope you dont mind yoof. Never got a chance to getting round of taking my own ones.

I will start off with the PPS subframe,


i had that frame 1st had was driving with it on for around 1 year. Now the frame is a good design and my frame had good welds and seemed to be fine. Fitted ok to the car although some modification had to me made to the right hand side where it mounts at the front. The downside on the frame for me was that the rear bar was held in place by 2 bolts and had a bolt joining the two bars with about 3 nuts in so you could adjust it. So there were technically 3 weak points on the frame already.

Now i herd that it was made the way it was is so it could be removed to allow an easier way to remove the gearbox. So when i removed mine i thought, ah lucky i have this frame on it should be easy. Well i ended up dropping the whole frame as the gearbox would not fit out. The bolt with the 3 nuts could allow for very little flex which you wouldn't want as after time it may twist the frame or worse it could even put stress on your chassis and twist that.

The best way that the rear brace bar could be fixed would be to weld it into place or simply get a solid piece of steel and get it made to fit therefore having no weak points on the rear brace. Where the frame actually mounted to the rear on the underside was ok but seemed to be very tight to fit. Also when undoing it i noticed that inside the frame there had been a nut welded into place to receive a bolt to tighten it up. Ok good idea, as long as the nut's weld doesn't come loose cause then you have no way if connecting it. You would have to take the frame off, possibly re-weld another in etc. I think the easiest way to have made this would be to of used a bolt going straight through with a nut on the end. That way its easy to take off/on and you dont have to worry about any welds breaking. The rear bar had loads of clearance for any exhaust system too.
Moving from the rear to how the mounting of the arms all go was ok. There was a like "L" shaped piece of metal that had a bolt welded to it. This was put through the bottom of the suspension and then connecting it all up together using a nut. Only downside to that would be what if the bolt sheared off? Would of been easier to drill a hole into the "L" shape and put a nice big bolt through.  :) The arms didnt come with dust jackets so the joints were exposed to the elements. The struts were adjustable as they would need to be and they seemed to be fine.


The front of the frame where the mounts were was a let down purely because the holes drilled were elongated. Why would you want to do this? This would allow for any movement of the frame at the front and your trying to cancel out any of this. Again what should of been done was to leave the mounting platforms blank allowing for the buyer to drill there own holes so that the frame would fit perfect, bearing in mind that the slightest of knocks can put the chassis out causing the frame not to fit. Or the other option would be to drill the holes but not elongate them.
The welds on the frame were at a good standard on mine and never had any problems. I cant speak for others as i have herd about other frames being terrible.
The gearbox mount is an area which i think needed to be looked at more. My 1st mount i didn't have any trouble with, until a few months back i took it off to check it and i had a crack that was very bad. The weld had failed and if it hadn't been removed for another few months then it would of certainly broke, sheared and pissed me off. After taking it off and looking at it properly it wasn't even straight. It had a slight angle on it which is why it had cracked the weld. After receiving a 2nd mount where the welding was very good i mounted it to the car. A lot more straighter but this time the angle from the mounting point on the gearbox to the rubber mount was at such an odd angle that it actually made the gearbox sit higher and i couldn't get the car into gear as it was fouling on the rear brace bar.

On to the handling. The handling was greatly improved and i was enjoying it. I have to admit that sometimes i thought it didnt feel right at times, maybe like something was loose. Having checked all the bolts and nuts everything was fine and i thought hey maybe this is normal. I blamed it on my suspension at the time but then thinking about it more led me to believe that it could of been to do with the elongated holes. Taking corners was better at higher speeds the car didn't shake as if it was about to fall to bits.

Overall, the frame is a good but as mentioned above could be better. Welding should be better to.
Handling was good to but i think if the holes were not elongated it would be better.

So if your looking to upgrade any handling/chassis component etc then a subframe is what you should get. If your tight for money then maybe a PPS one is the one to go for.

Onto the PPP frame.


Now the frame design was very good. The way it mounted was as if it was made on the car. The rear brace bar was a single bar welded into the frame giving it that extra strength. Enough clearance to clear exhaust system too. The frame welds were very good and to a very high standard. So good tick in the box there as more important then making your handling better is safety. On the rear of the frame where it was mounted was a better design as it allowed for a bolt to go straight through. So no worries about stripping nut threads etc as it could be easily replaced. I think that using this way of securing the frame had an advantage over the PPS one as it wasn't pulling the frame back as there wasn't a nut welded into the frame. Therefore allowing for pure tightening of the bolt to secure it into place.
The way that the arms are mounted to the suspension was a great idea and way to do this and using clevis pins/bolt combination works a treat. Please excuse the adjustable TCA's. Was trying to show the design better.


The adjustable compression strut is a better design too.


The frame mounting plates had holes that were drilled and they were not elongated. This was a bonus as i knew straight away there is no chance of any slipping/movement of the front end. Nice and secure there. Nothing wrong there and top marks.
Gearbox mount is a very good design. It looks stronger and made better. This mount was all straight and fitted like a glove. (unless you put the wrong size glove on)
But aside that it was perfect for the car. Sat just right and had no problems with it at all. The welding was again at its best and as a customer i felt satisfied that in 6 months time it wont crack causing me to be pissed off.

The handling was the next big thing for me and this was the last thing to test for. So after the frame was fitted i thought this is good. Feeling more sturdy and more fixed. I had a slight vibration coming from the front but that was because me and yoof forgot to do my wheel bolts up which i did think was funny, so after the were tightened it was gone. Took it down the road and i felt i had more confidence in my driving so i decided to take the corners a little harder than normal. Went round the corner without the feeling that something was loose. Corner after corner taking them a lot more harder even getting tyre screech witch i never got with the PPS frame as it didn't feel right when cornering hard. After getting back to yoof i said thats made the handling soo much better and i feel safer now when driving. Big smiles all around.

So the frame design is good with the rear brace being welded in place. The strut arms and the way it all connects up is very good and i like that idea a lot. The gearbox mount was perfect.

Handling was improved better and made me feel a more confident driver when cornering.

If you have the money to spend i would choose to go with the PPP frame as i personally think its a better made and designed frame. You pay for what you get.

If not then do what i did. By a PPS frame then if you choose to, upgrade to a PPP when you have the money. I can guarantee you wont be disappointed with a PPP stage 3 frame as every frame is the same. Where as the let down for the PPS frame is that all the frames welding are different and i didnt like to gearbox mount at all.

Frames are very similar but the PPP has the winning advantage down to the welding and the testing that is carried out on the frames as i know that yoof had his frame crack tested and it came back fine.

Some people say go cheap pay twice but i think its more of a personal decision. You gotta try for yourself to see what suits you and i have done both and know what the differences are. There may be some detail i have missed out and it probably looks like im have been more on the PPP side but i have ended up with a frame from them so i think that speaks for itself. I have tried to be as honest as possible but as i say you gotta try for yourself.

All feedback is welcome and if you have anything to say or add then feel free.

Would like to say a big thankyou to stuart at PPS and Pete & Andy at PPP for their hardwork and input into the frames. Keep up the good work and products are only going to get better.

All the best
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 07:28:42 pm by Jezza-7 »

Offline Etches

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 07:15:58 pm »
A great review Jez!

Having only had the PPS frame, i can only comment on that. I fully agree with all what has been said about the PPS frame which is why I shall be purchasing a PPP one when i have the funding!

Offline grungeisdead

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 03:59:53 pm »
on the flip-side, i switched from a PPP to a PPS frame, mainly due to the rear gearbox mount knocking and i didnt want to replace the mount with a brand new VW one, but thought it it was worth replacing, it was worth replacing with a polybushed mount.

i would probably suggest that your vague handling was down to an incorrect setup (ie wheelbase length front to back on both sides, ensuring your wheels are central in the arch, and the adjustable arms are the same length on either side of the threaded joints)

either way, either of the frames will make singlehandly the biggest difference you can make to your polo, and change the handling characteristics, to pant browningly scary, to a pleasure to drive enthusiatically!

Offline grungeisdead

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 04:03:29 pm »
Please note that im not saying that either one of these companies have stolen ideas as i think that more "old skool" polo parts need to be made ...

neither companies were the innovators of polo subframes, but agree that its top that a) one company is making polo performance parts b) theres competition, as competition breeds innvoation as well as other desirable attributes

Offline Yoof

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 06:59:26 am »
on the flip-side, i switched from a PPP to a PPS frame, mainly due to the rear gearbox mount knocking and i didnt want to replace the mount with a brand new VW one, but thought it it was worth replacing, it was worth replacing with a polybushed mount.

i would probably suggest that your vague handling was down to an incorrect setup (ie wheelbase length front to back on both sides, ensuring your wheels are central in the arch, and the adjustable arms are the same length on either side of the threaded joints)

either way, either of the frames will make singlehandly the biggest difference you can make to your polo, and change the handling characteristics, to pant browningly scary, to a pleasure to drive enthusiatically!

Saf- The chap who still makes our frames had one on a cup car way back in the late 90s, I'm not sure on the exact date Salzmann produced them, but our frames are the first in the UK at least.

James' handling was due to the way PPS make the front ARB bolt holes elongated for easy fit, which allows the bolt to move even when done up tight, defeating the object really.

Hope this helps,

Pete

Offline Jezza-7

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 01:33:01 pm »
Yes exactly. No matter how tight you do them bolts up you will still get play.

Offline Peterpolo

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2011, 02:31:52 pm »
Hello,

Sorry to be a pest but I'm after a stage 3 subframe and emaild yooth,
Does any one know when he usualy replies and if he has them in stock?
Thank you! ?

Offline ereeiz

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2011, 02:49:35 pm »
He normally replies pretty quick to stuff, he may have been away from work over the weekend or something hence the late reply?

Tried calling him? http://www.poloperformanceparts.co.uk/contact.php
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 02:51:22 pm by ereeiz »

Offline Peterpolo

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2011, 05:26:17 pm »
Nice 1, shld reply soon then yea went on the site too, cheers

Offline Yoof

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 07:13:36 am »
Reply with you- I need to turn out of office on  ;)

Offline Justin14100

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2011, 01:23:58 am »
When i put Jezzas old subframe on (PPS) i made some 5mm thick washers for the anti roll bar bolts, tightened them up and just welded the washer to the frame, wont move now! the biggest problem with it is it has the old wishbone design which means the wheel moves in the arch under braking / acceleration which means there is a steering angle change. I got in contact with steward to get the newer designed ones which are a much better design, like the PPP ones.

Offline prankstar2003

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2011, 07:38:04 pm »
Are pps still trading? I visited their site earlier and it said they were taking a break?!

The washer idea sounds good to sort the movement. Also, couldn't you weld up the hole and re-drill? Hassle I know, but a solution if you have a pps one


Offline Justin14100

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Re: PPP Stage 3 Subframe & PPS Stage 3 Subframe
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2011, 09:54:12 am »
Are pps still trading? I visited their site earlier and it said they were taking a break?!

The washer idea sounds good to sort the movement. Also, couldn't you weld up the hole and re-drill? Hassle I know, but a solution if you have a pps one


I think he has had his kit stolen or something along those lines so isn't currently trading, hard time for it to happen as well. Washer idea I feel is easier than welding up and re-drilling the holes, it means the holes are in the right place instantly without any measuring, just nip the bolts up and do some spot welds around the washer.
Stewart at PPS is making me the new arms (not the dual rose jointed ones) with the rose joint boot to seal it from road grime so I will let you know what difference this makes to the frame.