how bad is a g40 supposed to feel?

[z3i]

So I let my mates take the G for a spin round some Welsh roads and they both hated it! Said the handling was awful! Feels all floaty and horrible! I don't know any different

However it was keeping up with my mates mx5 with ease
But how is it supposed to feel? Is it because of the raspy suspension design? I mean robin keeps up with e46 m3's!

The back end is very slidey which feels horrible, and the car tram lines, but thought this was normal

Should I get a stage 3 so I can adjust the camber and limit the wheel movement in the arch?

[hayesey]

can't be that bad if it was keeping up with an mx5?  unless it was merely because of straight line speed.

what size wheels have you got on it?  Is there a reason for the back end being loose?  crap tyres? 

[Etches]

Tbf stage 3 frames make a huge difference, still can't believe you dont have one Taylor! Mine feels very very tight and thats without a full set up. Thats with S3 Frame, very stiff rear coils, rear strut brace, poly bushed throughout and 1 deg camber up front. Most people who have driven mine have said it handles like a go kart ie very direct. I have 195 45 falkens on too.

[z3i]

The outright power the polo has over the mx probs is helping, but no even on the long sweeping corners the polo reels it in slowly, I always thought it felt nimble, my mate got out after 15 mins and said I can drive it again lol

I honestly don't know what the rear is so loose, too much neg camber? I have 195/45 r14 so good size and new toys tyres. Damping as a reasonable rate, 5 clicks in from soft, 180lb springs 10 inch

The front bushes have seen better days and the drivers side front only, spring seems to keep going coil bound!? No idea why, only that side 250lb up front, ride heights are same

Yeah I know tom, I think will be getting one I reckon
Stage 2 atm, Hmmm, need one of you guys to drive mine, and me drive yours, no point asking Pete as it's been so long since he owned one

[hayesey]

those are pretty wide tyres for a car as light as a g40.  it will cause tram lining. 

Still, if you were keeping up with an mx5 in the bends then it can't be that bad.

stage 3 subframe & a diff makes a huge difference but really it's a track day setup, not too nice for a daily driver.

[Phil]

I found a 185 50 14 drives better conti or yoko, less tram lining.

How far off the bottom adjustment are you? Could you lower the perch and get a longer spring in?

On the rear, play with the damping first. I liked a stiffer rear (inc springs) found it helped, some don't like it, or look into keeping the softer springs and adding a rear roll bar. Poly rear bushes are useful.

Assuming alignment, tyre pressures and the rest of the car is good.

I remember one G40 handling pretty bad, turned out to be a cracked chassis leg.

[GR40]

My friends didn't like driving my G40 either! I had 13" wheels, stage 2 frame, kw and polyurethane bushes all around and the car was really good, in comparison to a lot of brand new cars I was driving at the time (due to my job). That being said, the car had a very precise limit over which it would understeer and you would have to be very methodical and precise with the throttle to keep the front in line. That being said, now that I have the exact same engine in an arosa, the car is more forgiving and has a way bigger limit when cornering before it tries to kill you. The difference is that now I can actually accelerate in the corner and the car will keep turning when before (with the polo) it would instantly go into understeer. So in plain words the polo can be as fast as newer cars but it takes a bit more effort and that is what they probably don't like.

[mark_crox]

On track days I have a 50 year old nemesis.He just so happens to have been on 3 or 4 track days that I have been on runs a mk3 MX5 and we always have a really good fight around the track I think with me just edging him out with speed. One day at Brands he asked me if he could passenger so I took him out and then I went out with him.

The difference in driving the 2 cars was night and day. I really had to fight to get the polo round the corner, put the power down and brake but he just was just driving round like he's just coming back from church.

The polo is really quick and will go but it is really involving and you have to work for it which might not suit everyone

[Andy]

Your rear spring rates are stiffer than the Cup Cars ran on track, so it's going to move around a fair bit at the back. If you're 5 clicks off full soft on the rear dampers, then I doubt the dampers are doing that much to control the springs if they're valved similarly to my Gaz setup.

The Polo is a small, light car, so with track focussed spring rates it's always going to feel skittish on any bumpy country roads. Doesn't help that you're asking it to transmit its power through the steered wheels too, so if your mates are used to RWD it's going to feel odd to them round the bends. It always takes me a while to adjust driving styles between the RWD daily and the Polo.

Not a fan of 195s on a Polo either, 185/50 on a 14" or 175/55 if you don't mind a bigger overall tyre.

Lower offset rims will also increase torque steer and tramlining. I remember driving Robin's car whilst mapping it on wide low offset ATS classics, and it was awful to drive - was much better on stock BBS RAs.

[z3i]

Thank you for all the reply peeps, it makes sense, dam helpful, didn't know about offset affecting tramlining

Well we did a good 150 miles of pure fast paced open roads with epic cornering

I found the rear steps out the most when turning two fast corners in opposite directions like flicking the car just throws the back end out

I have masses of room on the coilovers to go down so could get alot longer springs. What do you guys recommend?

Well tommorow will bring better roads so will see how it goes, yeah they both have rwd which probably not helping lol. Thanks Andy, I found if I go any harder on the rear it just bounces around, I will probs go softer on rear.

I have a diff ready to go and gonna go stage 3

That's very interesting about wheels and tyres, ok well Benson is gonna give it another go tomorrow
Towards the evening Benson was getting faster, it was getting harder to catch, but still keeping up, I think the mx had further to go whereas the polo felt like it was reaching its limits. Though on the plus there wasn't a hint of understeer, felt solid!!!!

[Andy]

If you take the rear damper off to change springs, have a feel of how easy it is to move the damper rod by hand just 5 clicks off soft. Then try to compress your 180lb spring by hand and it'll give you an idea of how much impact the damper's behaviour is having on what the spring is doing!

Think of the spring as the primary shock absorber, it's the spring which absorbs and releases energy as the suspension compresses and decompresses respectively. The damper is there to fine tune/control the speed/frequency at which that happens. That's overly simplified, but it means soft damper and stiff spring can leave the car feeling unsettled over bumps as the oscillation of the spring isn't being managed.

The way the Gaz stuff is valved means that whilst you have 30(ish) clicks of adjustment in total there's a point roughly in the middle where <10 clicks covers most of the effective adjustment range.

[Phil]

Your rear spring rates are stiffer than the Cup Cars ran on track,

Cup cars ran less than 180lb springs?  

Which in turn would be less than what KW and Gaz spec on their road going kits. Unless they're running large roll bars, I doubt it.

[Andy]

Yes, they ran less than 180lb springs according to the info I had from the net, 160lb ish if memory serves. Yoof had his set of cup car springs measured to verify the info and it matched. Post-Super Coupe Cup I believe spring rates were free choice, so people may have run a lot harder after that. Maybe G40motorsport can confirm?

Gaz haven't tested their setup on a car themselves, so I'm not too fussed about using their default as a benchmark.

KW use relatively strong tender springs at the back, so I'm fairly sure they're still active coils initially - so the compound spring rate means they're fairly soft, at least to start with 'til the tender is coil bound.

There's some interesting previous discussion here:
http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8835.0

[Phil]

Whilst Gaz haven't tested a kit themselves, they came up with the same numbers as KW, who have and always go for a softer spring and stiffer valving.

I bought that batch of cup car bits ages ago and there was a range of springs, all had wire diameters indicating they were very very stiff.

Kw use a 20N/mm tender. 80mm free length, probably 30mm closed at a guess = 50mm of travel. 50x20N = 1000N = 102 kgs to close under the weight of the car, which at 900 kilos on a 60/40 split is 360kgs, 180kgs per side. The numbers are a guess, but the point is they close under the weight of the car and only affect the rebound stroke.

I've said it before, I've ran 300ish springs on the rear, on the road, with damping to match and it felt quick without being too skittish, hence my surprise to hear 180 is too stiff for some people. Must be something else, like solid rear bushes for example, or a slightly bent axle/chassis causing the geometry to go 60s yank.

Out of the 40 odd polos I've had over the years, all with similar parts, only a few really handled well. I remember getting the geometry done on one which to find +2 degrees of camber on one side, and -1.something on the other. Added castor is great but if your camber is pissed, then the car will drive pissed.

[z3i]

Not that any of this is relevant as I've just cracked my third pedal box!!! Go dam!!! Snapped a cable got two spare, let's hope they last the trip!

Ok so I messed around with the rears today, feels much better on ten clicks from soft... If I was on a track! Went back to 8 clicks and it was a good compromise. Ive decided the springs are too hard! They would be mint fir track, but I reckon I need 150lb

Now the front is getting on my tits, it feels nice, but both sides keep going coil bound!! And shooting the car back in the air! I need 280lb fronts, with a longer spring. I have tender springs atm

Sorry I haven't read all of this yet so will reply again in a bit
Cheers for explaining that in layman's terms Andy, makes sense

I'm now debating stage three, I imagine now roll bar to be very bad, and anything more than 280lb front is gonna be awful on the front, most of my fast driving will be mountain roads

But anyway, I'm gonna go panic, as my pedal box has a massive crack and I'm literally in the middle if nowhere in Wales

Thanks taylor