head gasket saga and 1341cc

[garye40]

hey guys right so i have decided on the eaton set up to go for a set of 1341cc wosners
simple question which head gasket do i use ?
what exactly do i need ?
a proper list for a 1341cc build not a bits and bobs of information please if poss
I am in northern ireland have a rebore engineering place rdy to do the work i need to ensure i tell him the right stuff
I am going to seat 2mm bigger valve too in my shagged head so any where other than jabba sport can i source this too
I have the cam and a base chip ready too from old g40

cheers please only people that have a 1341cc g40 if possible

[hayesey]

just use the standard head gasket, it's fine. 

As for other parts, all you need is the pistons (which come with new rings) and then a rebore of the block.  Whatever else you renew is totally up to you.  As a minimum I'd suggest checking all the bearing clearances using plastigage, or just replace all the bearings to be doubly sure, depends on budget.  Then you'll want a sump gasket, both crank end seals, both block end cover gaskets.  For the cambelt end cover gasket you'll need to go to VW, for all the other stuff you can get it from GSF.  I'd probably leave the core plugs unless they look particularly corroded.

[garye40]

ok i was a bit miffed thought a metal gasket was best to use on a skimmed block it was skimmed before i got it but i only ran a short time to my garage for eaton conver then on a test run I new it was gone thought it was incorrectly tightened head bolts or wrong gasket used that caused it I have converted before with no issues
cheers

[hayesey]

people generally use the metal gasket to increase the CR slightly but you want to be careful if the block has been skimmed as that itself will increase CR, how much depends how much has been taken off it.  If you're not planning on running more boost than the 1-1.1bar you'll get max from a g40 g-lader (without dangerously overrevving it using a very small pulley) then you'll be ok with wossners, a skimmed block and a metal gasket.  But the standard g40 gasket will work just fine.

The metal gaskets tend to weep oil slightly from the main oil gallery, mine does this.  But it might not do if you've had the block skimmed.  It's not really a problem unless you like a clean engine bay.

[hayesey]

if you don't know how much was skimmed off the only way to find out is to first find out the deck height of  standard untouched block and then compare yours with this.  You'd need the block disassembled on a bench really though, a ruler or tape measure in the engine bay will be so inaccurate it's not worth wasting your time doing.  Get it on a properly machined flat surface (a piece of thick glass would do) and use a height gauge or use a large caliper to measure the deck height.

To be honest though, I'd not worry about it.  It's highly unlikely they'll have skimmed off enough material to worry about.  Especially since you're planning on using wossners which retain the standard CR, if you were using Accralites and planning high boost then it might start to be a concern.  With what you have planned, metal gasket should work fine.

[garye40]

ok then a metal gasket from a 6n 1.4/1.6 aex engine correct ? cheers by the way I am planning on a clean bay though lol getting it sand blasted and rebuilding slow with shiney bits my last one was shinney and always caught people by surpise want a similar or better bay this time just dont wanna be burning through gaskets I rather like the do it once do it right approach

I am considiring for the moment around 180bhp but the eaton is ridiculas I had 156bhp without a gt inlet any headwork etc before and a pee shooter exhaust befire upgrading it the car still going strong only eaton'g in ireland was very quick and it layed it down in the dry 135mph was no bother on a legal road of course , so who knows until the new stead is going then put onthe rollers to tune what it mauy be like
I did this coversion for little money this time biggest expense is injectors and the eatons shot up a little in price too rest was picke up through here cheers club g40

[The Duck]

Haysey is spot on as usual!

Another couple of points: You can get many places to put larger valves in your head. Many engine rebore places will do it. I personally would not use Jabbasport as they tend to be a little more expensive than other places as they have a well known name. I have had good work done by Andy at Highflowheads and some other places that have changed hands. However Andy is a spot on bloke and his heads have made good power on the polos. You should put new valve springs in and possibly fit slimmer/undercut stem valves if you want to make 240BHP+.
Make sure the engine rebore people have the pistons when they rebore the block. You should also torque the main bearing caps in place for the boring. The bore shop should measure and hone the block to the clearance on each piston and number the pistons by cylinder. The clearance range will be specified by Wossner. Do not simply take it out to a certain bore size as has been suggested in the past by Mr. Pitt I might add. This cost me a block and rebore, and cost a mate a set of pistons. 
My advice is try to run a high compression ratio as this will give better economy and off boost responsiveness.
I am currently running a decked block with 1341 pistons and an eaton with a VW metal head gasket. I did have a skimmed head too and do not have any oil weep issues. Currently my car is pushing 15PSI with an eaton and has been dyno'd over 230BHP. -Although I am not running this rev limit now. You ideally should get a cam with longer duration, I do not know the figures for mine, Haysey do you know what Steve specced for the eaton 2nd gen cam? I really could get it measured when I change the timing belt.
If you run a cam with less duration and have a poor flowing head/manifold you will put too much pressure on the inlet system and use the eaton in its low thermal efficiency range. This will cause a lot more parasitic drag from the charger and heat the boost excessively. You really need to run a large IC to keep the boost temps down and keep below 13-15PSI if you can.
Also note the RPM limit of the M45 should be around 16K peak and 14K continuous.
Try and run a 6PK belt rather than toothed as this will not wear the eaton mesh gears and cause shredded belts. There is a lot of rotational inertia in an eaton at 16K. Unfortunately I speak from experience!
If you do get it all completed you really will need coilovers, diff, driveshaft upgrade and a subframe to deal with the power. I know a lot of people have seen issues with the eaton conversions and the current trend is turbo. However PSD sold a half cut kit. Should you get it running right they are very tractable and are very responsive.
Anyhow I should go and make use of today!

All the best and let us know how it goes.
Duck.

[dub-disaster]

I just wondered how the you've managed to get 240 bhp plus out of a g40 motor only running 15 psi if boost!!! What other sort if engine mods have been dine to nock out this amount of power from a 1.3 8v engine , I currently have a turbo (ko3) to go on my car I want a reliable 200 hp I'm getting a bvh and going 1341cc next year , I thoght the only way to achive 200 bhp was to go turbo and I would have stayed supercharged if I knew that I could reach 200 hp with the supercharger because I love the way it delivers power and am slightly worried about the way the turbo will deliver the power I.e. Lag!! But just wonder what magic you have worked with your motor to squeeze that amount of power out if it ??
Oh and sorry to hijack thread I wl start a new one if required

[Andy]

I'd be very surprised if Andrew's (The Duck) car made 230bhp on the dyno at Aldon Automotive. No doubt that an Eaton is another route to a quick G40 if you don't want to go turbo though.

[poloeatonm45]

duck i would love to know more about the cam you are running. is it a psd p3 cam? i think thats what mine is but it will not run right in my car.

steven

[garye40]

Haysey is spot on as usual!

Another couple of points: You can get many places to put larger valves in your head. Many engine rebore places will do it. I personally would not use Jabbasport as they tend to be a little more expensive than other places as they have a well known name. I have had good work done by Andy at Highflowheads and some other places that have changed hands. However Andy is a spot on bloke and his heads have made good power on the polos. You should put new valve springs in and possibly fit slimmer/undercut stem valves if you want to make 240BHP+.
Make sure the engine rebore people have the pistons when they rebore the block. You should also torque the main bearing caps in place for the boring. The bore shop should measure and hone the block to the clearance on each piston and number the pistons by cylinder. The clearance range will be specified by Wossner. Do not simply take it out to a certain bore size as has been suggested in the past by Mr. Pitt I might add. This cost me a block and rebore, and cost a mate a set of pistons. 
My advice is try to run a high compression ratio as this will give better economy and off boost responsiveness.



I am currently running a decked block with 1341 pistons and an eaton with a VW metal head gasket. I did have a skimmed head too and do not have any oil weep issues. Currently my car is pushing 15PSI with an eaton and has been dyno'd over 230BHP. -Although I am not running this rev limit now. You ideally .should get a cam with longer duration, I do not know the figures for mine, Haysey do you know what Steve specced for the eaton 2nd gen cam? I really could get it measured when I change the timing belt.
If you run a cam with less duration and have a poor flowing head/manifold you will put too much pressure on the inlet system and use the eaton in its low thermal efficiency range. This will cause a lot more parasitic drag from the charger and heat the boost excessively. You really need to run a large IC to keep the boost temps down and keep below 13-15PSI if you can.
Also note the RPM limit of the M45 should be around 16K peak and 14K continuous.
Try and run a 6PK belt rather than toothed as this will not wear the eaton mesh gears and cause shredded belts. There is a lot of rotational inertia in an eaton at 16K. Unfortunately I speak from experience!
If you do get it all completed you really will need coilovers, diff, driveshaft upgrade and a subframe to deal with the power. I know a lot of people have seen issues with the eaton conversions and the current trend is turbo. However PSD sold a half cut kit. Should you get it running right they are very tractable and are very responsive.
Anyhow I should go and make use of today!

All the best and let us know how it goes.
Duck.


yes cheers for the info I leave in NI as I said so the work will get done here the bore guys know their stuff and nothing is gettin done till i have pistons
I was told before better valve springs are fine but not needed in the g40 but was going to renew them anyway also i have noticed the jabba price too lol ouch
the psd cam i have is the agressive timed one for the eaton pg3 or something hardly remember now but I only ran it for a while then reverted back to standard as the car didn't have the mods to support it
I have a large ic thanks and understand when i get silly bhp that everything else needs done too my last eaton polo was already silly quick with just 156bhp i was already planning on the extra things at that point then had to sell it
cheers anyway I will post some pics i have loads and its nice to hear the eaton still getting used i love it and am not too worried about a turbo well yet anyway

[The Duck]

As for the cam I have really no idea. I really should know better....I left that in Steve's hands and he was coy with the specifications apart from letting me know it was a trial cut. I was happy with it so didn't ask further questions.  I always figured I can send it off to be checked should I ever need another. Sorry I can't be of more help than that. If it makes you feel better I do feel a bit of a tw!t for not knowing.

DubD, as for the engine mods
1341 with accralite pistons, metal head gasket.
Balanced polished rods and balanced bottom end, large bore breather with windage tray
Flowed BVH running newman eaton spec cam
51mm TB flowed and matched to enlarged GT inlet manifold matched to head.
Flowed eaton M45 running 2.16 pulley ratio with enlarged inlet port
PSD front mount IC with flow improvements and shrouding
PSD boost pipework
4 branch wrapped manifold with straight through exhaust
Decent air filter
8K rev limit helps too

The engine flows all the way to the red line and has a little headroom for more.
The motor needs a vernier pulley as I want to trade off some revs for a little more midrange torque for engine life.

It is quite easy to get a charged 1341 to 220BHP plus with a decent flow setup, just think about things and take your time. Ben had his there with an eaton. Dont try to compare boost pressures with those of a turbo though as the two setups are pretty different. The 15PSI is at the inlet manifold.
The main issues with the eaton are heat (good IC) and lie with the responsiveness of the motor putting large forces on the charger drive belt. The system needs ribbed belts to prevent excessive shock loading damaging the charger and shredding the belts. You will reduce this with a standard weight flywheel and steel pulleys at the expense of engine pickup.

The mini boys are looking at a power ceiling of 280BHP+ although I question how long the M45 charger will last at this. You really need to get the boost pressures down (well flowing engine and overlap on cam) to make the eaton work well. This is easier with a larger engine so go for the 1341. Take a look at the M45 flow map.

Cant wait to see how you get on Gary, keep us informed.

Cheers
Andrew

[PeteG40]

it'd be good to see the duck or giorgio's car at club polo rr day to see what it put out on the day at aldon automotive, which we know are proven accurate rollers.

[giorgio]

it'd be good to see the duck or giorgio's car at club polo rr day to see what it put out on the day at aldon automotive, which we know are proven accurate rollers.

Not been about much but my charger/belt/pulley gave up the ghost on me. A major issue as The Duck pointed out, just not that well known as the kits are few and far between.

Will do a write up of recent going-ons including my redesigned eaton bracket. I cant justify getting it made right now but the new bracket should be alot kinder to the bearings/belts.

The major problem I have though was getting a bullshit remap by Steve Pratt. I just have not had the chance to get it mapped properly so cant really justify trailoring the car up for a run on the rollers. Have recently got a GayLander to tow the G around with so in the 2 weeks between New Years and me going back to uni I should have the car up and running.

Anyway sorry for the hi-jack