Author Topic: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils  (Read 7733 times)

Offline Yoof

  • Traders
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I know naathing..
    • Polo Performance Parts
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2013, 12:22:38 pm »
Hi

Sorry for the delay with this, I've been having a look around to see what I can see on the specs for the oil.

Based on what I can see, a really good fork oil will be ideal

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-852-silkolene-05-synthetic-racing-fork-suspension-fluid.aspx

A few people have used that in similar chargers in the past. Not cheap but very high quality.

Cheers

Tim

What chargers Tim? Is it compatible with the seals?

Cheers

Pete

Offline Jezza-7

  • Members
  • *****
  • Posts: 3832
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2013, 06:16:52 pm »
The only thing i was worried about was the seals.

If its good for the seals then i might get this.

Offline z3i

  • Members
  • *****
  • Posts: 1484
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2013, 08:17:08 pm »
Whats the stuff used in the eaton m45? does that eat seals? or is that an extreme pressure oil?

Offline scotsjohn

  • Members
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Probably the oldest G driver in the Universe.
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2013, 09:39:31 am »
Is there any evidence that charger seals are degrading because of oil type? Usually blowing from pressure spikes.

Offline Yoof

  • Traders
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I know naathing..
    • Polo Performance Parts
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2013, 10:09:05 am »
Is there any evidence that charger seals are degrading because of oil type? Usually blowing from pressure spikes.

*opens can of worms quietly*

My question to Opie Oils is, instead of recommending a random oil (which they stock) has any testing been done to warrant the recommendation, if so what? 

If is hasn't (which I suspect not) then what basis is the product being recommended on?

Regarding the oil pressure spikes- I've never seen any conclusive evidence (high speed pressure transducer traces pre-chrager) of oil pressure spikes on the rev limiter.

The pressure relief valve is open at this point anyway, any excess pressure (3.5bar +???) is vented to the sump. Oil pressure fluctuates when each lobe forces oil into the gallery, so you have a natural sine wave anyway.

If you're overcoming the PRV (i.e choking the relief) then oil pressure can rise sure and any fluctuations are seen directly on components.

I've not done any testing myself, but I'd have thought rapid speed fluctuations or excessive oil pressure would be more the problem rather than oil pressure fluctuations. Happy to be educated though  ;D

Offline oilman

  • Traders
  • *****
  • Posts: 267
    • Opie Oils
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2013, 10:34:55 am »
Is there any evidence that charger seals are degrading because of oil type? Usually blowing from pressure spikes.

*opens can of worms quietly*

My question to Opie Oils is, instead of recommending a random oil (which they stock) has any testing been done to warrant the recommendation, if so what? 

If is hasn't (which I suspect not) then what basis is the product being recommended on?

Why would I recommend something with no basis at all? That would be stupid and expensive. We had Fuchs test some supercharger oils for us a while ago and they found that the ones used in the VW chargers were very similar to the 05 synthetic fork oil. It was chemical testing, rather than in a supercharger, but that fork oil was the closest thing they have to the original fluid. It's not an exact match, but the properties of the fork oil were close enough to the original stuff to make it fine to use. As it was chemically tested, I can see no reason why it would affect the seals.

Regards

Tim

Offline Jezza-7

  • Members
  • *****
  • Posts: 3832
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2013, 10:37:31 am »
Well, you can always send me some for free and i will test it for you on my supercharger.

Offline Yoof

  • Traders
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I know naathing..
    • Polo Performance Parts
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2013, 11:19:52 am »
Tim- What 'basis' have you used to select an oil for a standalone 7psi oil system using a fuel pump on a Polo G40?

- No question regarding operating pressures/temps
- No question regarding pump/supercharger seals
- 'Testing' of a 'supercharger' oil used a comparison for a system which operates completely differently to a sealed oil system

Testing showed:

"The oil tech that analysed the original fluid said it was pretty weird stuff due to the way it behaved, so the only thing I'd suggest other than the original fluid is the Silkolene 05 fork oil."

It was 'weird stuff...'

You make no mention of the comparison oil?

Offline oilman

  • Traders
  • *****
  • Posts: 267
    • Opie Oils
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2013, 11:29:38 am »
The comparison oil was the original oil from the charger. Yes, it was quite odd stuff when compared to some other oils, which is why the fork oil was recommended. The fork oil is very shear stable (needed by the supercharger) and behaves in a very similar way to the original fluid across a range of temperatures.

You seem to think that I'm just recommending anything I can think of that we sell, just to try to make a sale. You're not considering the problems for us if I did that - bills from customers for damage caused, loss of reputation and therefore loss of sales.

Cheers

Tim

Offline Yoof

  • Traders
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I know naathing..
    • Polo Performance Parts
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2013, 12:20:19 pm »
What was the spec of the original oil from the charger?

Offline oilman

  • Traders
  • *****
  • Posts: 267
    • Opie Oils
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2013, 12:22:56 pm »
Hi

I don't have that to hand right now, but I'm pretty sure it was a Klubersynth product, if that helps.

Cheers

Tim

Offline Yoof

  • Traders
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I know naathing..
    • Polo Performance Parts
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2013, 12:36:52 pm »
So nothing like the oil that is used in a g-lader...  ::)




Offline scotsjohn

  • Members
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Probably the oldest G driver in the Universe.
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2013, 02:31:14 pm »
Pressure spiking was some thing that's been suggested a couple of times (ex CP IIRC) and looked quite a good suggestion taken with hitting the rev. limiter too frequently or for too long. Wouldn't that produce a "hammer effect" in the supply.

Are long term users of standalone systems experiencing much in the way of oil seal failure? or do they see any improvement. It starts to get a bit difficult to quantify when blowing seals is something you try to avoid at the best of times.

Offline Yoof

  • Traders
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I know naathing..
    • Polo Performance Parts
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2013, 03:19:45 pm »
Pressure spiking was some thing that's been suggested a couple of times (ex CP IIRC) and looked quite a good suggestion taken with hitting the rev. limiter too frequently or for too long. Wouldn't that produce a "hammer effect" in the supply.

Are long term users of standalone systems experiencing much in the way of oil seal failure? or do they see any improvement. It starts to get a bit difficult to quantify when blowing seals is something you try to avoid at the best of times.

It only produces a 'hammer effect' if the PRV isn't doing it's job, or you're exceeding the flow of the relief valve. also due to the fact it's not 100% liquid, there's a dampening factor to take into account.

Hitting the rev limiter isn't good for sure, but I've not seen any evidence of this being a result of charger speed fluctuation, or oil pressure fluctuation.


Offline PeteG40

  • Administrators
  • *****
  • Posts: 4036
  • Housewives heart throb
Re: The Advantages of Synthetic Oils over Mineral oils
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2013, 06:42:52 pm »
Doesn't pressure rise with revs and therefore those giving the limiter death are more likely to subject the lader to higher oil pressures. That said pressure is pretty high at cold even at idle