Author Topic: Yoof's Turbo  (Read 105562 times)

Offline Yoof

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #540 on: July 30, 2017, 08:14:05 am »
The words as promised:

I'd decided some time ago that the VAG 1.8T 20v motor was a good choice for my plan with the Polo - that said, they don't fit, at all, not in the slightest.

However, the engines are cheap, readily available, and tuned from an armchair, so the initial effort to fit the engine, would be rewarded by ease of tuning and parts availability later.

Turbo choice needed to be made fairly early on, the standard K03 isn't suitable - I'd spent a long time thinking (and calculating) what I wanted, at one end of the scale was a bespoke manifold and something with 3 letters from BorgWarner. The other was an off the shelf OE solution in the form of a K04-064 and adapter plate.

Decided on this as the hybrid units see north of 400bhp on a 20v, they're a low inertia (helped by smaller diameter wheels) and the integrated manifold and turbine housing means I'll not be worried about it cracking.

Downsides are fitting it in and thermal management. 

First job on the list after bolting stuff together was to measure everything and mark datums, centrelines etc:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

At this point I dropped it in, and worked out what needed to be cut.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

This photo is deceptive, although the engine looks fairly well positioned, the sump would be circa 100mm into the tarmac at the ride height I want to run. Tall block engines, are unsurprisingly much taller than their small block brothers!

Next problem was the steering rack, now I know a few VW Engineers, they have a good sense of humour, but the day it came to design a Polo steering solution, they just took the piss. It's flexible, vague, poorly mounted, and generally in the way. No consideration for future proofing either :lol:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

This will go, once I've found something that fits - a Corsa D rack isn't quite right, but close. I've got a Corsa C EPAS setup and column in the car, so next logical eBay purchase is a Corsa C rack.

Onwards with the cutting!

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I'm moving the front mounting points forward, and reinforcing the chassis legs along the way.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

The diagonal bar runs through the front chassis leg now, where my subframe will pickup, the vertical bar is welded to a crush tube where the original ARB mounts to, and the subframe will pickup on too:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Diagonal bar welded to the front lower chassis leg:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I then discovered Epytec sell uprated engine mounts for Golfs, to fit a variety of different Powertrain combinations into old Golfs. Clearly I don't own a Golf, but I've managed to make two of their engine mounts work:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Lick of weld through primer to stop it rusting:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Currently I've used stock Febi engine mounts, with Poly inserts, which are abit rubbish, but will do for a proof of concept.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

On to the NSF was a similar process, although I've not finished the chassis leg yet.

Engine mount is 3 bits of tube and another Epytec mount:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Installation angle is basically the same as a stock Mk4 Golf in X and Y, which wouldn't be possible quickly without one of these:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

All for now :happy:

Pete

Offline ereeiz

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #541 on: July 31, 2017, 03:28:24 pm »
If you need any info on the Corsa EPAS steering give me a shout and I will ask some old work mates, I used to test/characterise them on the rig at TRW in Shirley. Might be able to get you some info on the software to reduce the assistance, they're super light and not speed dependant from memory, you can turn all that on/off and make it progressive as the vehicle speed increases. Same for ford systems, current Polo system and some Fiat systems (stay away from them if you can, they're shit!)

Offline Yoof

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #542 on: July 31, 2017, 09:50:06 pm »
If you need any info on the Corsa EPAS steering give me a shout and I will ask some old work mates, I used to test/characterise them on the rig at TRW in Shirley. Might be able to get you some info on the software to reduce the assistance, they're super light and not speed dependant from memory, you can turn all that on/off and make it progressive as the vehicle speed increases. Same for ford systems, current Polo system and some Fiat systems (stay away from them if you can, they're shit!)

That would be very useful cheers - I think the fixed assistance are from the vans, the Corca C runs a standard 2 or 3 rate system varying with speed I believe.

Cheers

Pete

Offline Matty!

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #543 on: September 01, 2017, 06:55:11 pm »
You and Mr Pinder with the Pinderwagon would be a beautiful sight on the ring together.
400bhp with what less than 900kg's all in? will be rather hilarious.

Offline Yoof

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #544 on: September 17, 2017, 09:26:59 am »
Not too much of an update, but an update none the less!

My intention was to use Golf uprights and hubs on the Polo - again, these don't fit, so another bespoke subframe and fabricated wishbone setup is required. Coupled with changing the steering rack, it's a full front end redesign, which has taken some thinking... and needs a fair bit more yet brickwall

Vento Challenge Car Bilstien dampers are inverted monotubes - not surprising considering the front spring rates fitted (800lb+)

So they'll get re-valved for some much lighter spring rates in due course

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

First job to make these work was sorting the top mounts, I have fabricated strut mounting points on the Polo anyway, previously for camber adjustment (which cocks the kpi) with a Golf hub/upright this is adjustable further down the assembly.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Although the top mount will be adjustable, my intention is to set it for the correct track width and then leave alone. So drew up some bits to be laser cut, and ordered some bearing housings from McGill Motorsport (good price and service). These will be welded on the underside and mount stright on the damper shaft.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Will be sent to my friend Jake for TIG welding, as I don't want to warp the bearing housing with my MIG.

Another quick win was a front engine mount- nicked from a B5/B6 Audi A4 1.8T - needs the lower PAS bracket cutting off and then it can act as the main torque reaction mount for the Polo

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

£4.50 delivered from eBay :lol:

All for now

Pete

Offline Yoof

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #545 on: November 24, 2017, 04:08:13 pm »
Time for an update, been on a few trackdays in the £600 Clio, still good fun, managed to get full value from a set of brake pads at Blyton:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Put some big 4" ducts on the front and made up some deflector plates, which seemed to help things somewhat.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Aside from a crack in the exhaust, and a cv boot held together with gaffa tape (cheers Nige) it's been a solid motor. Managed 180miles at Donnington without anymore than fuel and bump starts :lol:

Anyway, enough of that french filth. Onto Polo progress!

I needed to get the powertrain mounted, just had the c-mount left to do. I used an Epytech 02M engine mount, which was cut and shut to take a 90 shore bush from superflex. Doesn't really move currently, but as the bush is a common size I can swap it out for a lower shore rating in future.

Looks like this:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr
Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

For those not familiar with a Polo chassis (which is most of you because why the f**k would anyone modify a Polo!?) the rear brace is between the track control arm mounts, and will form part of the subframe.

That represents 3 evenings work!

Now the powertrain wasn't moving about anymore, I could address the steering rack. I had already decided a K04-064 was the turbo for me, just it wasn't the turbo for the steering rack, or the chassis leg, or anything else really, I hope it's worth it...

Polo steering rack looks like this:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

The mounts to the bulkhead aren't great, meaning there's lateral movement in the rack and the linkage on the end to the steering arms adds to the vague steering feeling.

I needed more clearance, so binned the Polo one and went through 3 or 4 different racks (Escort, Aygo, Corsa D) before I found an earlier Corsa one that would do the trick. Most are subframe mounted, and I need it bulkhead, so it's a PITA to find one with the correct width and angle of input shaft to the rack.

This wasn't an easy thing to get right (assuming I have) so copious amounts of measuring were done:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

After measuring comes grinding:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I then offered the steering column up, and did a massive swear:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

UJ are fairly forgiving, but I was taking the piss expecting this to work!

After deciding not to set fire to the car, I removed the EPAS column I had previously painstaking installed with the Polo steering rack, and cut off the mounts.

How it was:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I turned my attention back to mounting the Corsa rack, and did it like so:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

With that mounted, I then removed the steering column mounts on the dash bar, and mocked up where it needed to be so the UJ angles weren’t terrible:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Trial fit of the pedal box to ensure I had clearance:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Added two more tubes, triangulating it back to the dash bar:
Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I then needed to remake the connecting shaft between the column and rack, as I was now using all GM parts, this was based on a stock Corsa one, just cut down. They’re crimped splines as standard, something which I can’t replicate, so I pinned it using a 6mm roll pin, and then welded around the shaft and around the pin for good measure (the spline is still fully engaged too)

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Happier with that than my previous cut n shut, so every cloud n all that.

Cabin looks something like this now:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Still got to mount the gear shift tower, and cut the handbrake down, along with splitting the corsa column to accept these:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Should still be able to keep the Corsa stalks, which makes indicators and wash/wipe much more intuitive and easier, flicking toggle switches was my least preferred route for standard controls!

Rack gives me the space I need engine side of the bulkhead, and there’s enough room for some heatshielding betwwen the turbine housing and it:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I’ve also been fitting a new radiator to support the extra thermal loads this engine will have, a Mk4 Golf aluminium items seemed a good place to start, 42mm core and is literally the largest rad I can fit in!

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Lots of parts got cut for it to fit, including the headlight surrounds:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I’ll be getting rid of the stock shroud, I can’t fit a stock alternator with it, and the average speed will hopefully be high enough to warrant not having one, just need to ensure the rad is ducted properly.

It fits behind the bumper and grille, so just need to package an intercooler & oil cooler, and I’m done for the cooling pack stuff!

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Cheers

Pete

Offline randombadger69

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #546 on: November 27, 2017, 08:05:37 pm »
 :o fair play to you Pete, things are looking good. You clearly know some shit!

Most people would have probably moved onto a golf by now. I enjoy and applaud your efforts for sticking with a Polo. I also have the common love for a Polo over a golf, however I'd be more inclined to stick with what I know (small block) and accept a power to weight ratio that is plenty for the stock chassis. Your approach of making the chassis cope with what you demand in terms of power is brilliant! Clearly the difference between a motorsport engineer who understands the physics and the average enthusiast.

Once again; hats off to you. Some inspiring stuff!

Andy
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 11:28:27 pm by randombadger69 »

Offline Yoof

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #547 on: November 28, 2017, 07:32:15 pm »
Cheers Andy - someone has to have love for the old Polos  8)

If I had to start again tomorrow, I'd certainly choose a Mk2 Golf, I started the project with more free time than I now have!

Chassis will have a few more interesting tweaks, especially in the subframe, which is the link to getting across platform parts to work together.

Small blocks are certainly loads easier to pick up and lug around!

Cheers

Pete

Offline ereeiz

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #548 on: December 15, 2017, 02:30:49 pm »
Awesome work as ever!

Are you going to go 4wd at some point? In for a penny and all that! ;) :P

Offline Yoof

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #549 on: January 14, 2018, 08:45:07 am »
Awesome work as ever!

Are you going to go 4wd at some point? In for a penny and all that! ;) :P

Cheers! 4wd probably not, I'm intending to use it for track days- power management (and driver skill) are key to make big power FWD work effectively. BTCC is a good example of different circuits playing to the strengths of rwd and fwd.

A VR6 Turbo in a 4wd Golf II does excite me though!

Offline Yoof

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #550 on: January 14, 2018, 08:45:32 am »
Progress is slow, but it's progress all the same!

I've been making good the bulkhead after cutting large holes for the steering rack. The stock bulkhead was looking crusty, and I decided rather than repair, to replace the lower section entirely.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Obviously involved cardboard, cutting, grinding, welding, all the usual ingredients!

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Couple if fiddly bits around the rack passing through the bulkhead, I was hoping to use the Corsa gasket here, but it's too big unfortunately, so a crush foam ring will have to do.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Big hole

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

No hole

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Rack fitted

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Welding on the engine side is nice and easy, welding the interior side is a back breaker, especially with a full cage in the way! Amost knocked myself out on the dash bar more than once...

Some Bilt Hamber no rust applied inside and out:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

With that complete, I needed to make a heatshield, same process as I'd used for the exhaust tunnel. I made it in two parts due to the size and shape of my material.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Camera doesn't pick it up very well, but there's a large amount of manipulation involved to make it a good fit, can't say I'm 100% happy with it, but it's functional.

I then used 3M reflective tape over the surface, the reason for this is the standard heatshield material allows fluid to be collected and pool. It also is difficult to wipe clean without removing it. By taping the surface hopefully fluid won't pool and it's far easier to wipe down, both reducing the risk of a thermal event (I hope!). Unsure if this has had any detrimental effect to the thermal performance of it.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

So, one rack with heat-shielding complete:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Cheers,

Pete

Offline Yoof

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #551 on: April 02, 2018, 08:48:49 pm »
Progressed on with the Polo over the last few weeks. Front subframe is now welded up - just need to finalise location of wishbone pickups.

As usual things started with some measuring and ensuring my datums are correct.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Checking levels before welding it up:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

With it all tacked in place I then welded it up on the car to minimise warping, and finished it clamped on my bench:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Gussets added to the front/side bar to strengthen where the front wishbone pickup will mount to, I've also got to tie this back into the chassis mounts:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

The (almost) finished article:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I've used ROPT510 tube for the frame, spec is here: https://proformancemetals.co.uk/products/ropt510/ It welds nicely, and helpfully the supplier, Proformance Metals are just down the road in Daventry.

Looks like this mounted in the car:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I also had a revision to do on my top mounts, as I'd reached the limits of the bearing before dialing in the amount of castor I want to run, luckily I got spare plates cut last time so..

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

My friend Jake then welded a new pair of bearing housings in at a 7' angle, I can run +/-10' from here before reaching the articulation limit of the bearing, so should be plenty.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I also paid a visit to my local machine shop and got some parts turned/milled for the rear suspension.

Some longer bushes to allow fitment of the Vento rears:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

And then some larger stub axle spacers, 40mm each side maximises a 205/50R15 in the rear arch, and gives clearance to the coilover.

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I then got worried about the weight, but net result was +220g either side over previous parts:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Wheels sit a little proud of the stock body lines:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Also been working on a different turbo setup, as I couldn't package the K04-064 without deleting my OSF chassis leg completely, more on that next time!

Cheers

Pete

Offline Etches

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #552 on: April 06, 2018, 09:21:29 pm »
Simply lovely! Fantastic fab work and painstaking attention to the dimensions/alignment.  8)

Offline Yoof

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #553 on: July 06, 2018, 06:48:40 pm »
A long overdue update, first up I got a new company banger delivered, this one needs plugging in:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

More suspension measuring has been going on in the garage, unfortunately it's resulting in me chopping my subframe about to mount the front suspension pickups further inboard to stop massive camber gain in bump, this didn't stand much of a chance unfortunately:

IMG_8423 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Measuring sticks back out and some calculations will result in something nearer this:

IMG_8425 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Parts arrived including some 3/4" high misalignment bearings for the ball joint, I'm waiting for some other bits to come back from machining, so this will pause here for a while

IMG_8429 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

IMG_8460 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Fitted studs into the wheel hubs, nice gear:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

And bolted a wheel up, this level of castor will require some arch and bumper modifications:

IMG_8045 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Next part of things that don't fit... the stock AGU inlet manifold:

IMG_8055 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

IMG_8057 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

:lol: Not a chance, so I've purchased a VR6 throttle body and will have an inlet fabricated to sit much lower down behind the rad, which unfortunately is where the stock alternator sits, never easy eh.

I had been planning on fitting a lightweight Brise alternator, I'm hopeful that ePAS loads are offset by high rpm on track, but need to tot up big draws like fan, fuel pump and ePAS - this is a 60A unit with a 2.4:1 ratio on the crank, so at idle will generate circa 15A and full 60A from 3k onwards, battery sizing will be fairly key to I don't run out of electric magic.

Stock alternator (90A) and tensioner:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Brise 5SI:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Nice saving, I ordered up a 6PK pulley and belt as I had a v-band on it previously, then chopped up the standard AGU mount and stuck it in:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

I'll get some spacers turned up once I've properly aligned it, tensioner will be a simple turnbuckle with rose joints at either end, can see how tight it is to the rad:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

The main progress had been made on the turbo system. I started the 20v conversion hoping I could use a Golf R/S3 K04-064, unfortunately I couldn't package this without seriously re-engineering the OSF chassis leg, so a change of plan was in order.

I was just about to order a Borg Warner EFR unit, and a very well priced Garrett GTX popped up, ex-BTCC bespoke builds by Owen Developments, coupled with a tial turbine housing, nearest off the shelf unit is a GTX2876.

IMG_8041 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Obviously that necessitated a new manifold, which I ordered from TSR:

IMG_8454 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

And a 44mm Tial MV-R Wastegate, in red to match my dump valve:

IMG_8511 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Bolted up to see if it would fit, soon meant the bulkhead would meet mr grinder for the 4th or 5th time in its life:

IMG_8456 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Clearance to the rack is good:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Unfortunately there's a slight design flaw which means the wastegate fouls the gearshift cables, so I'll get the manifold modified to re position it:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Decided to locate the air filter in the space the cabin heater left behind, a nice high pressure area in the scuttle:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Made a mount for the air filter and welded that in:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Turned my attention to the exhaust downpipe, fairly easy stuff just a 3" pipe with a v-band on it and a few lambda bungs, will all be TIG welded together soon, just tacked up for now:

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Last bit of the update is the intercooler - nicked from an Evo 8, they're plentiful and cheap, and flow well for the power level I'm gunning for:

IMG_8422 by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Sort of fits the Polo...

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Untitled by Peter Strange, on Flickr

Bumper will get a fair bit of re-design once the splitter and air dam are done, for now it's just got a big hole cut in it:



Which is about where it stands currently!

Cheers

Pete


Offline ereeiz

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Re: Yoof's Turbo
« Reply #554 on: July 09, 2018, 11:50:11 am »
Bloody hell mate, probably have been easier to build the front end how you like then chop the Polo off from the windscreen and weld the custom made front end on! ;)

Do you sell that bolt on bumper support bar? My tin plate bit is 3/4 chopped so was going to look at making something like you've done but it's easier to buy something already made! :p

I used to be excited about cars like this, how they'd drive and so on.... nowadays I find it more interesting finding out the ways people like yourself have done things, lessons learned, etc.

Keep it up!

As for the Golf, it's not a banger....there's no ICE? So that would make it a....... whiner? Whirrer?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 11:52:22 am by ereeiz »