Club G40 Forum
Technical => Engine and Transmission => Topic started by: Jezza-7 on April 23, 2012, 07:40:21 pm
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Is there any other gearboxes that fit to the block?
I once was told that a mk3 golf box can fit.
Has anyone ever tried any other boxes?
I saw a pic of a lancia delta box and it looked very very similar.
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it would be interesting to know ..
these cars listed.. all share the same clutch..
so would be interesting to see if any the box's bolt up !
Lada 110 111 112 Kalina
Opel Ascona C 1.6D
Opel Astra F 1.7D
Opel Kadett E 1.5TD, 1.6D, 1.7D
Vectra A 1.7D
Seat Arosa 1.4 16V
Seat Cordoba 1.4 16V, 1.6
VW Caddy II 1.4, 1.4 16V, 1.6
VW Golf III & Vento 1.6
VW Lupo 1.4 16V
VW Polo 1.3 G40
VW Polo 6N 6N2 1.4 16V, 1.6, 1.6 16V & GTI
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I know that the 6n dont fit. I had one and was different.
I see the golf is mentioned so maybe it could be bolted on?
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6N fits, but if it's cable-change you need to grind the mechanism mount off the back of it.
02K series from the Golfs supposedly fits, but I've never tried it and have no idea if it's any stronger.
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The mounts are gonna be quite different on a lot of them too.
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And starter motor location, and driveshaft location!
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I wonder if any are a worthy conversion?
if the starter motor was to still line up ok with the flywheel,
and the driveshaft location was to be close enough if not slightly higher in the bay so that on lowered motors the shafts would be more horizontal.
i think jezza mainly asking purely cause of strength !
like me is thinking ahead for the G60 conversion, all the torque and horror stories of the box's blowing to bits and shafts and CV joints disintegrating.
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Is there any other gearboxes that fit to the block?
I once was told that a mk3 golf box can fit.
Has anyone ever tried any other boxes?
I saw a pic of a lancia delta box and it looked very very similar.
Only the type 085 mk3 golf gearboxes fit (essentially a Polo 6N gearbox) and hence not any stronger.
This topic has actually jogged my memory about a conversation I had a while back with a friend of my dads who used to own a breakers yard back in the day. He swore blind you can get Austin Maestro/Montego gearboxes to fit the old polos. I just took it as idle gossip, but......
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-MAESTRO-MONTEGO-GEARBOX-4-SPEED-1-3-1-6-/150505873368?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item230ad95fd8 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-MAESTRO-MONTEGO-GEARBOX-4-SPEED-1-3-1-6-/150505873368?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item230ad95fd8)
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Looks very similar and better as the starter is at the front!
Do the VR6 golf's have a different gearbox then?
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The mule Maestros were VW Jettas, thought it was a big block 'box that they'd bought the designs to not an 085?
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it would be interesting to know ..
these cars listed.. all share the same clutch..
so would be interesting to see if any the box's bolt up !
Lada 110 111 112 Kalina
Opel Ascona C 1.6D
Opel Astra F 1.7D
Opel Kadett E 1.5TD, 1.6D, 1.7D
Vectra A 1.7D
Seat Arosa 1.4 16V
Seat Cordoba 1.4 16V, 1.6
VW Caddy II 1.4, 1.4 16V, 1.6
VW Golf III & Vento 1.6
VW Lupo 1.4 16V
VW Polo 1.3 G40
VW Polo 6N 6N2 1.4 16V, 1.6, 1.6 16V & GTI
i take it all these boxes carry the 200mm clutch plate ?
all the boxes that have a 190mm clutch plate standard will work the release bearings are different but swapable between boxes
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The mule Maestros were VW Jettas, thought it was a big block 'box that they'd bought the designs to not an 085?
This is my understanding also, if my memeory is corrrect a bloke at work fitted an MG Maestro 'box to his mk2 Golf some years ago. I'm not sure if it was 100% straight on though.
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id love to find out there was another box option to fit the polo block..
a stronger box would solve alot
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Saw this today in the scrap yard a mk3 golf with a small block engine 1.4 and what looks like a big block gear box was rather puzzled by it
(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz257/oli-b/b92b64aa.jpg)
(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz257/oli-b/49fd456f.jpg)
(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz257/oli-b/624c6546.jpg)
??
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hmm indeed .. i dont know what box that is ..
but on a note, been doing some searching and there are options for us
Sorg Motorsport a while back done a Conversion plate.
to use Bell housing from 085 and the 02a box.
and there are also polo coupe Diesel Shafts available too.. im just tryin to see about CV joints.
Seems so far G40 Joints are the only different ones..
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I was actually running a 9n clutch on my g40!
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Saw this today in the scrap yard a mk3 golf with a small block engine 1.4 and what looks like a big block gear box was rather puzzled by it
(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz257/oli-b/b92b64aa.jpg)
(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz257/oli-b/49fd456f.jpg)
(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz257/oli-b/624c6546.jpg)
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Yeah those late mk3 golf have the block cast to have a 020 series gearbox mate to it. Spen on Club polo bought an AEE engine and started work on it, then found out an 085 box wouldn't fit!
If you were doing a complete custom engine overhaul/build like a turbo conversion, then this block might be worth looking into as a base.
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For anybody looking for a cheap alternative to a broken G40 gearbox, then this is the best option imho:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vw-polo-p-reg-1-6-gearbox-code-dcc-/130679340333?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Car+Make%3AVW&hash=item1e6d187d2d (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vw-polo-p-reg-1-6-gearbox-code-dcc-/130679340333?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Car+Make%3AVW&hash=item1e6d187d2d)
IIRC, switch over 3rd and 5th (if your G40 box has these intact) and you will have essentially a G40 CEK gearbox ;)
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But a presume that this has no strength advantages over the G40 box?
Im trying to find an alternative Box that will be stronger to handle all the Torques :-/
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Non of the type 085 gearboxes are stronger. The only thing which makes a G40 box slightly stronger is the crown wheel is bolted onto the diff housing. I think second gear might be more case hardened too on the G40.
I'm now treating gearboxes as wear n tear consumables. Got masses of spare parts, so can repair or knock up a new G40 box if needed :D
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What about the Lupo GTi box? Why doesn't that fit?
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Different bell housing on Lupo.
Best thing that anyone can do is analyse what components fail, replace them and see if they fail again to learn from that. With cars of this age, state of tune and mileage it can be unclear whether it's a torque related failure, or simply age/mileage.
I broke a few ATVs with a highly tuned G40 motor, but never had the same failure twice! Had a diff die (pinion gears had shattered, but donor car had bounced off kerbs and snapped driveshafts), and dog teeth go on 5th (gear alignment), and finally the gear teeth go on 5th (age/oil/torque - replaced with new items and still going strong).
Having said that, if you've got a G60'd motor or a 220bhp+ turbo'd lump then I reckon you'll be seeing a fair few torque-related failures regardless. Yoof buzzed 2nd gear in his on track, but that was with sticky tyres, LSD and a passenger - I suspect that the additional grip this combination provided increased the shock torque loading on the gear teeth as the turbo spooled up.
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Although the lupo has different bell housing ive seen alot on German polo forums or this or the Polo gti box being fitted with the Sorg motorsport conversion plate.
I cant seem to make sense of whats being said but i do still have the links.
But there was more an issue fitting the lupo box, but i think that was with the 6speed.
I will be running g60'd , which is why im tryin to figure other options.
A Bought my box from Craig Wallet which was sold as Cup box (no difference to my knowledge)
fitted with a quaife diff, which i imagine will be much Stronger!!
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Possibly the fact the Lupo box is hydraulic? I wonder if the 6 speed ratios would be any good on the G?
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There is also a guide to change the conversion.
its all on polo trieff .de
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one of the sites mentioned .
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.polotreff.de/forum/t/124082&ei=sPmoT-ujNcan8gP187z1BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dlupo%2BGetriebegeh%25C3%25A4use%2Bg40%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D609%26prmd%3Dimvnsfd
Said plate
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/djtezlawson/67de95e418dd64050fca3466f5db55fdd3_large.jpg)
Sorg done the 02a box conversion at a cost, using your 085 bell onto a 02a box
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I'd be interested, but- if it requires new flywheel/clutch, custom cv joints, new plate diff, cutting chassis leg/subframe, custom shifter mech (potential for a nice CAE one) and it's heavier, then it can't be far off a good few grand and a large amount of work.
Can break/rebuild quite a few boxes for a few grand!
HoR Racing in Germany do 'uprated' gear sets for an 085 box, Sorg had one for sale a while back, silly short ratios, but was 3000euro+ and wasn't fit for 250Nm+ (which your G60 PY will have!).
Old Klaus here: http://www.klaus-bernert.de/rennsport.shtm
Offers a 6-speed sequential upgrade for an 085. He's never responded to my e-mails, and the boxes seem to fetch £7k second hand, so no idea what they are new.
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Thanks for the post Yoof, seems you have alot of hidden knowledge lodged away deep in that brain of yours!
Alot of the german boys quote that the ATV box is no good after 150nm ...
where as you know yourself not quite the case although it depends on the driving, yes i know.
From bits ive read, you use Golf hubs, and people are cutting the shafts down to size!
flywheel and clutch i've not managed to figure yet.
But there are a few boys running g60/ audi tt box's so it cant be that hard or expensive surely.
A 6 speed seq box would be absolute AWESOME
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I have a big head, got to fill it with something. ;)
150Nm- yeah that's probably right for a design case, FOS (facor of safety) I'd guess at 1.5 times declared (225Nm with ATV) which is probably about right. Fudge factor comes in when the 084 box is so similar to 085 and that was designed with 45bhp in mind!! D'oh.
Driving style, available traction, and torque delivery do have a massive impact upon life. I've found since being able to get full traction in second (requires a meaty passenger, slicks, subframe etc etc) that second gear goes! Before the wheels just span!
Driveshafts aren't too bad, there's various companies which will make them (custom) for £160/side so you could use a Golf inner joint, and Polo outer joint if you wanted to retain the Polo hubs.
However, in the spirity of upgrading things, if would be a shame not to switch to a Golf hub & use a larger CV- I don't think the Golf hub fits in a polo upright, so que changing the uprights/steering arms/top mounts.
Wonder if the spline on the gearbox can be changed easily.
The 02* series of boxes are very readily available, I've got a huge spreadsheet of them at home, all with various ratios if it's of use.
Sequential is awesome, but also requires a form of torque reduction during shifts, be it through ingition retard, or fuel cut- either way it's not happeneing on Digifant, so more expense on either a gearbox control unit (GCU) or a decent ECU which can handle shift inputs/control loop too. I've never used a sequential or set on up, but I think you'd also need a strategy for failed shifts etc too, not that simple.
Clio 172 Cup Cars used Sadev boxes, when I used to read the Cliosport.net forum a few people had them on road cars, required oil changes frequently (1k miles) and a fair amount of upkeep- which a motorsport box is designed as such gearsets are eas to change/inspect. I get the impression they're crap at low speeds and tip in/tip out throttle conditions, and generaly very clunky, being ither semi-helical or straight cut teeth.
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You should start your own blog, or scrap book for us all here Pete !
Have you found Hor upgraded gears of the same ratio as ATV ?
You'd think there would be some choices out there seen as there is quite alot of demand for Stronger box's/cv/driveshafts .. even though the G40 are quite few and far between in the UK the rest of the world have many! and more than half a would guess are running over the 150nm mark be it from a g40/g60 or turbo.
There is alot of technicalities with the sequential set-up, Digifant is far too historical for all this as you've mentioned, i wonder how Peter Naumann in his Bergrennen champ had his set-up.
Not from knowledge but guessing from sound of his car he uses straight cut with sequential as the changes are phenomenal!
I hope this Topic keeps going and we all get some good info out this
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I think Peter Newman (yellow mk1/mk2 G60?) uses a Klaus box- and obviously uses aftermarket management.
I'd have thought he's making 250Nm+, but I don't know how often he rebuilds boxes.
From my spreadsheet I made for a WL Motorsport box for sale, here's some typical 'Berg' ratios, control tyre is 540mm diameter (175/60 R13)
G40 ATV
Final Drive: 3.333 Tyre Diameter (mm) 540.2 Actual Speed:
Gear Ratio Engine Revs(rpm) Output shaft(rpm) Driveshaft(rpm) mph
1st 3.455 6800 1968 591 37.36
2nd 2.095 7000 3341 1002 63.43
3rd 1.469 7000 4765 1430 90.46
4th 1.098 7000 6375 1913 121.02
5th 0.851 7000 8226 2468 156.15
5th 0.851 3000 3525 1058 66.92
WL Motorsport ATV
Final Drive: 4.710 Tyre Diameter (mm) 540.2 Actual Speed:
Gear Ratio Engine Revs(rpm) Output shaft(rpm) Driveshaft(rpm) mph
1st 2.500 7000 2800 594 37.61
2nd 1.880 7000 3723 791 50.02
3rd 1.520 7000 4605 978 61.86
4th 1.290 7000 5426 1152 72.89
5th 1.160 7000 6034 1281 81.06
5th 1.160 3000 2586 549 34.74
That's pasted a little squiffy, but last column is speed in gear @ 7000rpm, 81mph in 5th for the WL box!!!
Part of th reason there's nothing that good for G40s, is the Berg Cup boys can make do with stock(ish) boxes, they've got minimal torque from the screamer n/a motors
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Jesus! lol the WL box would just spin spin spin ..
i found this ..!!
although no pictures !
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dg60%2BGetriebe%2Bauf%2Bg40%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D609%26prmd%3Dimvnsfd&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&twu=1&u=http://www.g-laderseite.de/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D16803%26postdays%3D0%26postorder%3Dasc%26%26start%3D80&usg=ALkJrhj4-Inj3oqZ_RsCzyusAcI55kzcoA
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I think getting an adapter plate for a Lupo GTi box would be a good way to go as you get a 6 speed box, I had discussions about making one with the Wizard (father) who used to make several a month when he was an engineer while travelling as a much younger man.
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There are discussions of needing the Salzmann subframe (similar to stage 3 ppp)
and make a bracket from that to steady the box..
i have no idea about a shifter yet..
so much german ahhhh
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I think getting an adapter plate for a Lupo GTi box would be a good way to go as you get a 6 speed box, I had discussions about making one with the Wizard (father) who used to make several a month when he was an engineer while travelling as a much younger man.
Don't think the extra gear gains you anything due to the ratios, also not sure how strong those boxes are?
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I am really interested in this topic. I have been looking into stronger boxes and have concluded that im not rich enough to go with a s1600 gemini sequential job and from a driving prospective i think i would rather have a traditional manual anyway.
Yoof you mention that you have tried to contact Klaus, any joy with that out of interest? Also do you fancy sharing the table of 02a ratios you speak of?
I would like to look further into the 085/02a bell housing/cog box option, in my mind it seems to be the best road to go down. Has anyone got the any further info on what the conversion consists of what sort of money the converion plate is? I tried looking through the german polo forum that has been linked to but it doesnt make much sense to me (lack of patience) and my german is non exsistant.... ::)
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Yeah no worries, I found it through Google (020 ratios or something), ping me your e-mail and I'll send it over.
Regarding the conversion, the actual mounting of the box requires an adapter plate and I'd guess some plate for a Polo starter motor.
Gearlinkage & associated cabling/shifter to be mounted
Driveshafts to be made (£££)
LSD to be purchased
Chassis to be cut
Subframe to be modified
Speedo drive (presume this is the same)
Hydro clutch potential (requires new pedal box) need to check clutch input shaft on box/flywheel
New gearbox mounts to chassis
The conversion plate is probably the cheap bit, I can't see it happening for <£2k which buys you alot of 085 boxes! I've done my sums and gone against it, makes more sense to put a 20v in it from the outset.
Klaus never responded, I've seen the boxes (second hand) go for £4-5k on Berg Cup Marketplace - at which point, I'm out!
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My email is futureclip@yahoo.co.uk - cheers mate.
Yeah i realise the costs/work involved wont be cheap but i dont really want an unreliablecar due to the box, I would rather spend the money now whilst its still in bits than keep shafting boxes and having to strip them repeatedly. Plus if it stands a chance of ruining an expensive track day....!!!
I'm toying with the idea at the moment as im going wide track and need to get shafts made anyway, can adapt my cable obp pedal box to hydro easily, sell the polo quaife diff and cae mech tower i have and use the money towards the new bits. Not bothered about chasis cutting and fabrication of mounts etc as my mates love it when i tell them i have more work on the shit polo again :D
As for sequential, I cant justify spending another £4-5k on the bloody thing plus stand alone management etc, it already owes me a good deposit on a house so its 02a or no way really.
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I agree!
Having said that, I've taken the piss with my old box for quite a while (drag slicks, 200bhp+ for a long time) and it was 2nd that finally let go at Oulton.
Wide track? What components you using for that?
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We shall see what happens. Might see how long the first box lasts and go from there. I've thought about cryo freezing the full gearset as well.
Wide track will be ground control castor/camber top mounts, custom arms, bones and shafts and fibre glass haug kit which I've had sitting in my garage for 4odd years (if I can find it all lol) and some other bits thrown in.
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How wide is the Haug stuff? Only reason I ask is I wouldn't/couldn't go much wider with mine on the Berg arches (WL ones) with 7" wheels and ET0 offset as it would contact, unless the Haug stuff has much more room?
Should look sweet!
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I'm pretty sure that on the crappy wheels that are on there at the moment (et33 7") i have about 2" gap to fill per side. Thats all fun that i have to come. I havent thought much about offsets yet, as i havent looked into wheels too much. Do you notice any real difference in handling with such a low offset? (sorry off topic) Should be ok when its done, its taken long enough (to be fair i'll probably get bored of it in 2 months again and not touch it for the follwoing 18 months)
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Probably 1" or so wider than the WL stuff then :o
Regarding handling, it's not really fair as I'd gone from different tyre sizes (and type) between 14" ET38 185/55 K700 cut slicks, to a 13" 540mm full slick on an ET0 rim.
In theory yes should reduce roll too.
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http://www.ebay.de/itm/Sorg-Rennsport-Getriebegehause-Umbau-Polo-G40-auf-02A-Golf-G60-Seilzug-Getriebe-/160994905108?pt=DE_Autoteile&fits=Model%3APolo+Coupe&hash=item257c0b4c14
Thread revival ;D
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Interesting, would someone like quaife be willing to make gearsets?
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I think numbers and cost would be a problem.
Probably want a minimum of 50 or so before committing to tooling- and I can't see many people wanting to spend £3k+ on gear kits for Polos :-\
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Could be worth sending an email though? I'd be up for a set
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Its a good idea but seriously the numbers dont make sense £3K is alot of ATVs or the price of a different engine gearbox conversion!
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Yup this is (unfortunately) the conclusion that I have come to. Big block conversion (2.0 TFSI, 20v 1.8T, 20v NA etc) can all be made to have 230bhp+ with a decent gearbox, for not much more time/effort than putting a big block gearbox on the car.
Will see what breaks next!
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That is true, but we don't have an unlimited supply of atv's haha