Club G40 Forum
Technical => Engine and Transmission => Topic started by: Jezza-7 on June 05, 2011, 08:45:43 pm
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Well after the melted piston it took me two weeks to get the car running again. So was having it remapped today and just as we were finishing the session, again i lost power but this time no smoke out the rear. When the plugs came out one looked like this and i was wondering if anyone knows where the rest of it is?
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0278.jpg)
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0279.jpg)
Very disappointed as i spent all saturday getting it spot on and then this. Hopefully there isn't too much damage.
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If I had to guess, I think that plug is consequential damage from the head dropping a valve/valve seat.
Was thinking earlier, if that's the case - does the person you bought the head off still have the receipt from Jabba?
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Ah good question. Will find out.
Head will be coming off tomorrow so will see the outcome.
Cheers again for today mate. Learnt a lot as well. ;D
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(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b155/robinyau/494ba332.jpg)
Very similar to what happened on mine. Mine was due to the spark plug thread being retapped and helicoiled however the drill drilled away some of the valve seat which then failed.
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Ouch!
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I didn't realise that your head had died too Robin!
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That was a good couple of years ago if not longer, I was running the lader back then with 150bhp.
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Found it!! Pics to follow!
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Pics pics pics! Fingers crossed it's not seriously bad news.
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Right....
When i took the head off with the inlet attached, deciding not to look at the block until the head was removed, it rattled a little and i knew straight away that there was a lot of FOD inside.
I will start off with the least damaged.... er parts? lol. Enjoy!
No 2 and no 3 on the head appear to be fine and they are not bent. But the rest will tell you more about the damage.
Here is no1 inlet/outlet valve on the head, inlet bent but the exhaust is not bent.
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0281.jpg)
And from a different angle
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0282.jpg)
No 2
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0283.jpg)
No 3
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0284.jpg)
And well whats left of no 4
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0285.jpg)
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0286.jpg)
Right now the bottom end
Starting with no 1 and debris
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0287.jpg)
No 2
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0288.jpg)
No 3
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0289.jpg)
And again whats left of no 4 and the remaining piston, this was the shocker for me :'( but i did find some of the spark plug in the swarf.
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0290.jpg)
And the valve
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0291.jpg)
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0292.jpg)
The cylinder bores 1,2,3 are fine and have no damage so that was good but unfortunately no 4 had damage.
This is the rear of the block
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0293.jpg)
And the side of the bore next to the no3 wall
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0294.jpg)
Whats your thought on the no 4? Do you think the damage is too far to just put a new piston in it.
Other option is to get my old block re-bored and get forged pistons.
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holy shit!
no way you'll get away with just putting a new piston in there, absolutely no way.
Any ideas what has caused this?
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I can only think of valve clearance. Its weird how no 2 & 3 valves are fine but no 4 speaks for itself and no 1 only has the inlet valve bent and the exhaust looks ok.
Annoying really after buying the block and bvh. Thats about £600 down the drain. But the cam is fine.
At least i have the old head still.
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Plug deffo a result of valve failure.
I'd have a chat with whoever did the head...
Block needs an overbore to be used again, I'd also check the rod is still straight (infact I'd frame the piston/rod from no. 4!)
Strange the inlet on No.1 is bent, are there any witness marks on the piston? Also did you manage to check the cam timing post failure?
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I checked the vernier hadn't slipped at the side of the road - though that's not to say that the belt hadn't skipped.
No. 4 drops a valve/seat and the consequential seizure bends the rest?
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Just noticed you havn't got a valve seat...
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What do you mean by "frame piston/rod from no 4"?
Jabba did the head.
And the timing was setup before remap and Andy gave it a good look at before and everything was ok. This did only happen about 3/4 of the way through the mapping. Had covered around 50-60 miles, maybe more, then this happened.
There are a few marks on the no 1 but look like it might of only hit once or twice.
Before i removed the head i checked the timing and it was just before tdc on the crank pulley and the vernier pulley so it was still timed correctly.
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Just noticed you havn't got a valve seat...
Ah yeah. Now you mention that. So it looks like that was the problem. Is it worth talking to jabba about head and possibly NGK about the plugs?
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Frame it- cause it's quite epic!
Valve seat probably hasn't been pressed in properly, I presume Jabba replace them with larger valves...
Nothing at fault with the plug- that's purely a result from the valve smashing it!
Should have checked the timing afterwards to see if it had skipped a few teeth on the cambelt (probably has). Doesn't take much to bend valves, so there might not be obvious contact with pistons.
I'd be having some strong words with Jabba.
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If you can get hold of the receipt from Jabba, it's deffo worth giving them a call.
Once that valve seat dropped out (I suspect that's the route cause - hence why you've got a headless valve in no.4) the cam belt will've skipped as Yoof said, which is when the other piston/valve contact occurred.
You've been bloody unlucky with engines, and sadly with the head it's not really something you'd have a hope in hell of noticing when building it.
I was telling you in the car about the same happening to my friend Marshall's track car - he had a moody head that dropped a valve seat and stuck a hole in the piston. The motor had seen 8,000rpm regularly, but he was lucky in that the valve seat dropped out whilst cranking it over - so it holed the piston but didn't damage the bore.
See what Jabba say - your best bet is probably to try to salvage your melted piston block. Is the bore badly damaged on that?
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Sorry to see this James! I know you have spent alot of money and not had much luck.
Looking at this picture
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0290.jpg)
there is a nice indent on the piston at the bottom of the picture made by the valve, my opinion is that it the valve seat is the cause, i am not convinced that it is the cambelt slipping a tooth or 2 as you would see the same damage on cylinder 4, yes there is some debris in cylinder 4 but there are no signs of the valve hitting the piston like it did in cylinder 4.
I have my old cylinder head you can have for free if you need something to get yourself back on the road, it has no valves in though.
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Sorry to see this James! I know you have spent alot of money and not had much luck.
Ditto. I hope you can salvage something from it all.
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Luckily i still have the old head so im good there but thankyou very much for the offer though.
I think out of the two blocks i have i will get one rebored and get forge pistons. But thats not going to be cheap. I keep telling myself it will be worth it. ::)
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I keep telling myself it will be worth it. ::)
It will be! Maybe if you can make Jabba accept some liability they might be willing to do a deal on some forged pistons?
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You will be looking at about £600-700 for a 1341 set up.
I admire your determination! It will be worth it............................just.
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Can tell you didn't build yours!!! Try £1200 for a pukka 1341cc build (short block).
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only just read this whole thread, really sorry to see youve been having such shit luck mate. Hope you can get some sort of help from jabba if they accept some of the blame for it. nice to see youre staying positive and not just giving up i think alot of people would after the stint of bad luck youve had.
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If you can get hold of the receipt from Jabba, it's deffo worth giving them a call.
Once that valve seat dropped out (I suspect that's the route cause - hence why you've got a headless valve in no.4) the cam belt will've skipped as Yoof said, which is when the other piston/valve contact occurred.
You've been bloody unlucky with engines, and sadly with the head it's not really something you'd have a hope in hell of noticing when building it.
I was telling you in the car about the same happening to my friend Marshall's track car - he had a moody head that dropped a valve seat and stuck a hole in the piston. The motor had seen 8,000rpm regularly, but he was lucky in that the valve seat dropped out whilst cranking it over - so it holed the piston but didn't damage the bore.
See what Jabba say - your best bet is probably to try to salvage your melted piston block. Is the bore badly damaged on that?
Will ring them tomorrow and see what they say. Might be able to rebuild me a bottom end for a lot less.
I will get a pic of the old block where it melted. Its not a lot of damage though.
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Can tell you didn't build yours!!! Try £1200 for a pukka 1341cc build (short block).
Got quoted 1500 from TSR and i think that incl vat. Will double check with them. I see lance is selling his lot and might try get that off him as i might be an easier and cheaper option.
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only just read this whole thread, really sorry to see youve been having such shit luck mate. Hope you can get some sort of help from jabba if they accept some of the blame for it. nice to see youre staying positive and not just giving up i think alot of people would after the stint of bad luck youve had.
Cheers mate. I know, 1st melted a piston then this. Will have a nice collection of melted/broken piston soon lol. But im trying to smile all the time im just gutted. Couldnt believe it when it went during the mapping. Of all bloody times. I did look at selling up and buying another one or just buying another g40 and using my current one for spares, but im gona carry on like this. Im sure i wont be at bvf this year in the g40 but i still wanna go so will see whats happening around the time, never know i might get it back on the road, only took me 2 weeks last time. And im getting the hang of taking the engine out 8)
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Go 1341cc if you can, does Lance's motor have a BV head?
Only problem with Jabba is that the original purchase isn't in your name- however they should at least give you a credit note.
Give me a text if you need parts, got a fresh G40 landing on Friday so will have some bits spare.
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How about the whole engine lol.
No i dont think he has. Just a 1341cc accralite bottom end. I did wanna keep it as a 1.3 though but looks like that isn't going to be an option. Maybe if i put a load of money in the engine bay it will run better?
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1341cc is 1.3- round down ;D
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Yeah, i like your thinking! 1341 it is then.
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Also whats you opinion on re using the head bolts? Now they were only in for a full day and a half.
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more reliablility more power cant go wrong realy although it does come at a cost
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Also whats you opinion on re using the head bolts? Now they were only in for a full day and a half.
With your luck? New bolts.
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Use new bolts for sure and proper G40's as I found this weekend that there is certainly a clamp load difference between the 2.
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wow, what a mess :(
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where have the chips of metal come from in cylinder 1 to 3? are they piece's from the valve digging into the piston crown? cus it doesnt look like there's alot of damage on the headside apart ur slightly bend valves.
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Also whats you opinion on re using the head bolts? Now they were only in for a full day and a half.
With your luck? New bolts.
i'd reuse the bolts, but then again im a massive pikey!
ill give them a home if you dont! =P
dread mate for you though, proper shit after already having your melted piston, but as yoofington says you should turn that holed piston 4 into a mini ormanent for your fireplace!
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Yeah i deffently will. The bolts cost me £50 and they are proper g40 ones. I think i might just re-use them as they are still like new really. Will see how im doing for money.
The metal inside no1 is from the no4 where it must of been sucked inside the inlet. The inlet manifold has got loads of metal in. Sounds like a tin full of metal balls.
Spoke to TSR and they said a full rebuild using a vag oil pump will be approx £1200-£1300 incl vat.
Jabba, i spoke to them and brian said that there's not a lot they can do really. He said the fella who does the heads (man in shed) is very good and he doesn't do the inlet valves only the exhaust valves on the bvh. He said if i want i can send the head to them so they can have a good look at it.
Waiting to hear what quote they can do a full rebuild on the bottom end. And new bvh.
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Yeah i deffently will. The bolts cost me £50 and they are proper g40 ones. I think i might just re-use them as they are still like new really. Will see how im doing for money.
The metal inside no1 is from the no4 where it must of been sucked inside the inlet. The inlet manifold has got loads of metal in. Sounds like a tin full of metal balls.
Spoke to TSR and they said a full rebuild using a vag oil pump will be approx £1200-£1300 incl vat.
Jabba, i spoke to them and brian said that there's not a lot they can do really. He said the fella who does the heads (man in shed) is very good and he doesn't do the inlet valves only the exhaust valves on the bvh. He said if i want i can send the head to them so they can have a good look at it.
Waiting to hear what quote they can do a full rebuild on the bottom end. And new bvh.
I'm not being rude mate, but £50 when you're already talking about going to 1341 is sweet FA. Bearing in mind that there is a reason you shouldn't re-use stretch bolts (ref Robins post above) and also that you surely wouldn't want to have to do a headgasket swap after building a shiny new engine....
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Yeah the problem with stretch bolts is that once they've been torqued up they are stretched and not really good to reuse, regardless of how old. I have reused head bolts before bu not in my g40 and certainly wouldn't if spending all that money.
I think id be pushing jabba for some discount!
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Ok guess i best get to vw and make a part's list.
Will get a oil pump if there still available as i can get it cheaper from vw.
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think there about £180-200 from vw depending on discount ive got one thats i bought as new old stock (genuine vag) and never fitted next time your passing pop in if your intrested mate
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Is that how much a vag oil pump is nowadays :o I do miss VagParts.com :(
Gutted for all this to happen to you, hope it doesn't stop you getting where you were aiming for though!
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Really? I thought they were less than that.
I have got one that i bought a while ago. Its not new though. Will pop round at some point mate.
This will not stop me though nick. Plan is to rebore bottom end with forged pistons then get another bvh.
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Been looking at forged pistons and was wondering if it would be worth buying this package?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380255270493&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_1466wt_907
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not really sure what the point would be, I've never known anyone have problems with the standard g40 rods
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Ok thats good to know.
Just a quick one as i got confused while reading a thread on rebuilding a bottom end.
Can you use a standard block, crank and con rods with 77mm forged pistons?
I think i was getting confused with the 1w crank etc and the height of them too.
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Can you use a standard block, crank and con rods with 77mm forged pistons?
yup.
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I got a vag oil pump from euro car parts for £90
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That's a good price for genuine vag, I first bought a pattern kolben schmidt one and it was real crappy quality compared to genuine
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VW have said £130.
Gonna get a list of everything i need as if i can get it cheaper from vw then it might save me some money plus i know its all genuine stuff.
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Did Jabba offer to repair/replace their faulty head? Or is there no warranty?
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Still waiting to hear back from them but got no receipt so cant really prove they did it. I think he said send it in and they will see if it is repairable. Probably not but might give it a try.
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So far i have a list as follows:
Wossner forged pistons incl guedon pins, piston rings
Crank Bearings [Set of 5] 026 198 491 A
Con Rod Bolt 052 105 425 A
Hex Nut [Rod Bolt] 052 105 427
Bearing [Rod to Crank] 031 105 701 A
Thrust Washers 026 198 421
bush between crank and flywheel 052 105 313
oil pump 030 115 105E
Oil Pump Drive Chain 030 115 125A
How many do i need of each and is there anything else i need? All help will be great.
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Any suggestions?
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you need bottom end gaskets and also need a timing betl pulley bolt and flywheel bolts.
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Main bearing cap bolts
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Cheers
Would this do for a gasket set? Elring
http://www.bar-tek-tuning.com/cgi-bin/cosmoshop/lshop.cgi?action=showdetail&wkid=31478&ls=en&nc=1307783845-31482&rubnum=&artnum=2140046&file=17&gesamt_zeilen=0Tsuche--polo%20g40
or victor reinz kit
http://www.g-laderseite.de/eshop/product_info.php?products_id=95
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I used erling from gsf Good quality stuff
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Do they do a kit the same? Couldnt find it on there website.
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Well this is the last of this post now and after taking the engine out with my new engine crane (which was very easy)
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0297.jpg)
this is what debris i found in the bottom of the sump.
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0302.jpg)
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0301.jpg)
There was a few bits in the oil pump as well. Oh well :-\
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Wow this is some serious bad luck, a real tale of woe.
I really admire your attitude, good luck getting back on the road - it'll be worth it in the end!
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Yeah it will be. Luckily my work bonus comes in this month so should be back on the road start of august.
Saw justin at the weekend and the sound of the G40 put a smile on my face and i just thought i need it back on the road asap!
Also found more debris again! This was inside the head and inlet manifold.
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wow good luck with the rebuild.
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Cheers. Its been dropped off now at TSR and should be ready in 2-3weeks. Depends on how long it takes them to get the forged pistons.
If all goes well i will be at the polo show.
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Right this is my last post for the topic now. My engine is back and rebuilt.
So here is the melted piston that caused me my 1st engine problem
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0434.jpg)
Might make something like this for both of the pistons
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0435.jpg)
And finally my new engine
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0430.jpg)
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0432.jpg)
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0433.jpg)
Head done by man in shed
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq157/jezza-3/IMG_0431.jpg)
Now to run it in.
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Looks nice, good luck with this one!
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Cheers!! ;D
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Yea looking good mate!
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Keeping everything crossed for ya Jezza.
You've had some seriously bad luck so far. Good luck with this one mate.