Club G40 Forum
Technical => Superchargers / G-Lader => Topic started by: sohailG40 on September 02, 2009, 09:18:06 pm
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hi guyz i just need some info and help
i have a eaton m45 charger laying around the place but am running a full blend g ladder i was gonna buy a eaton kit but when phoneing jabba the guy said to me that the eaton is a crap conversion he said stick with the g ladder make it in to a r1
i was thinking i want to hit the 200bhp mark with the G40 will the r1 make it the jabba blkoe said it would
what do you guyz go for and whats your say in this ???
thank you
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The R1 charger may help you along to the magic 200bhp but you will need a shed load more work done to get near that figure!
Have you though about a G60 charger?
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I'd have said if your lader is already ported to a full blend by PSD Jabba wont take any more out of it. I've also never heard of a 40 lader making 200 brake. Also just as a matter of interest why do you want to make 200 brake?
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You'll struggle to hit 200bhp with the G40 laderm in fact i very very much doubt you'll see anywhere near that. Alan had his running 185bhp ish and that was pretty much maxed out.
I was trying to get 180bhp with my lader and to be honest with pretty much every thing done to the engine bar a BVH i was realistically going to see 175bhp-180bhp with a custom map. At the time i was running 166bhp.
Even with the turbo set up i got now i will still struggle to hit the 200bhp with a custom map without a BVH.
Don't go the eaton way, they sound crap! If you do wanna go eaton then go for turbo instead!
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I'd have said if your lader is already ported to a full blend by PSD Jabba wont take any more out of it. I've also never heard of a 40 lader making 200 brake. Also just as a matter of interest why do you want to make 200 brake?
i wanna get 200bhp out of my g40 it will be a slow project but 200 is just about right for a front wheel drive car
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You'll struggle to hit 200bhp with the G40 laderm in fact i very very much doubt you'll see anywhere near that. Alan had his running 185bhp ish and that was pretty much maxed out.
I was trying to get 180bhp with my lader and to be honest with pretty much every thing done to the engine bar a BVH i was realistically going to see 175bhp-180bhp with a custom map. At the time i was running 166bhp.
Even with the turbo set up i got now i will still struggle to hit the 200bhp with a custom map without a BVH.
Don't go the eaton way, they sound crap! If you do wanna go eaton then go for turbo instead!
i think the eatons sound nice but all i have heard is bad news about them and aw tracksports kit being very badly designed
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You will struggle to break 180 bhp with a 40 lader and standard cylinder capacity. I remember Gordan Ray a while back now ploughing good money into his car, only to get 179bhp. Saying that though, Rich Hughes had Jabba's old green G40 and i'm fairly sure that got to near 190bhp and i don't think it had Aquamist, just a chargecooler instead.
You will have to use laughing gas to get to 200 bhp :D
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yeh want 200bhp or close to it
i dont like the sound of a eaton and i dont want to run a turbo on my g40
i like the sound of a g60 can you guyz tell me how much i am looking at fitting one of these and were to get the bracket
and once fitted what could i achive with it
thank you
sohail g40
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lol no laughing gas thats cheating
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strange how they say eaton is shit and they don't do one.
strange they say an r1 will make 200bhp and their maxed out demo car made less than that with headwork/big valves, custom map etc etc.
200bhp just is not achieveable on a g40 lader IMO
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a guy called Barney got over 190bhp with a g40 lader a few years back. 1341cc and all the trimmings, also not sure what size pulley he had on it.
Personally I'd say go turbo if you want a reliable 200bhp engine that isn't breaking on a regular basis and doesn't cost the earth. G60 is another way but they are even less reliable on a fast revving g40 engine than on a tall block golf engine.
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barney got 190+ at stealth where lots of gts made 100+ IIRC
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yeah that's a fair point actually, stealths rollers are usually good for a 10-15% power increase alone ;D
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You will struggle to break 180 bhp with a 40 lader and standard cylinder capacity. I remember Gordan Ray a while back now ploughing good money into his car, only to get 179bhp. Saying that though, Rich Hughes had Jabba's old green G40 and i'm fairly sure that got to near 190bhp and i don't think it had Aquamist, just a chargecooler instead.
You will have to use laughing gas to get to 200 bhp :D
yeah it did 194 i think when jabba owned it, adrian ford had it for a few years after that, not sure if it ever got those figures with adrian, he tried to tweak it to get more.
what happend to Barney?
also why are there rollers so bad then with high figures ? dont they get them checked out
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I would venture that 200bhp on Aldons rollers with a 40 'lader is not realistic.
My Full blend, 1473cc, BVH etc motor (with custom PSD map) only made 167bhp, albeit freshly built. I'd expect to go above 170 now it's loosened up a bit but finding an extra 30 is highly unlikely.
Only thing I can think is an even smaller pulley (I know Steve had a tiny one on his tin can at one point pre turbo) but even then 200 seems a bit far fetched and you'd be rebuilding the damn thing every few weeks!
My expectations of 200bhp at the last RR day were off the back of the "190bhp" Jabba demo but the number being lower than you were led to believe in no ways slows down your progress I can assure you!
170 real G40 powered bhp with a nice flat torque curve in a G40 shell is shitloads - well, plenty anyway IMO.
If you really want the magic number, as others have suggested the only really practical way of doing so is to go turbo, and from the testimonies of those who have gone down that route it is a very well rounded and decent setup to boot.
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Varley, get a G60 on that mofo LOL
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also why are there rollers so bad then with high figures ? dont they get them checked out
it's not that they are "bad" it's just they seem very optimistic in that even totally stock cars have made way over standard power on them at past rolling road days. But they are at least consistent which is the main thing.
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Varley, what cam have you got in yours now? When Currie had it he put a schrick 268/268 for a turbo in there. That engine will take plenty of boost though if you want to see in excess of 220.
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Got a one off jobbie made by newman specifically for my setup which PSD specced for me ahead of the custom map so should be ideal.
Very nearly went turbo a couple of months back but decided against it for the time being, gonna let it bed in a bit and make sure I make the right choice. Quite like the idea of a G60 but have concerns about how the box would handle the torque delivery?
Saving for some coilovers at the moment though so all plans on hold!
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Good idea, people always go for more power, power power. and never spend on handling or braking.
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I've stocked up on gearbox (4) and charger (3) spares preparing for casulties :D
The off the shelf 'one size fits all' for modifications aint going to get you a desired power figure. Deffo need to tinker with maps and cam profiles comobs to get the best. Thats probably why Jabba's car got up there, having time and funds to keep playing at it.
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You changing from the G40 charger Nick?
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You changing from the G40 charger Nick?
When they've all grenaded :P
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You running a a 65mm pulley on there Nick? We could club together to get smaller ones made up maybe?
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You running a a 65mm pulley on there Nick? We could club together to get smaller ones made up maybe?
Luckily, I got hold of Mr Tull's 58mm toothed pulley. I would of been up for that otherwise :)
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Ah, wondered who snagged that little beauty... You gonna have it running for the RR day?
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Possibly. Depends on if i get some much needed mods done before then.
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The awt kit out the box so to speak is shocking but it does not take much to mount things slightly different for it to be reliable and strong personally I love mine.
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I don't think you could make 200bhp with a g40 lader, be it 1272cc, 1341cc or bigger.
Barney's made 194bhp at stealth, and about 187bhp at Aldon I believe. I've never believed Jabba's figures to be quite honest, at work I can give you a dyno print out for an engine that's well under, or well over the odds, all in the correction factor ;)
58mm pulley is asking for trouble IMO especially without a decent map.
Eaton's in my opinion sound annoying! Remember a quick drive in Eekie's car (about 20miles) which was more than enough. For proepr refinement, with reliability turbo is the only way ;D
G60 lader are savage, and will give 220bhp+ on a well specced 1341cc engine, torque delivery is savage, so expect your drivetrain to take a beating- I renew my CV joints every year, I guess a G60'd G40 would need them more regularly.
I think the 8v heads haven't got a huge amount to give after 230bhp anyway, but time will out!
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yeah jabbas demo car his here
http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,568.0.html and its just over 170bhp on a 1272...
so perhaps 170 on a 1272
185 ish on a 1341 g40
then obviously turboooos 1w lumps, eatons, g60s are a different game.
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yeh the bloke i spoke to said some thing about a g60 charger but as hayesey says they are not very reliable
can some one tell me what i am roughly looking at spendind to get a g60 charger onr the g40 and also how much a turbo conversion would cost me and what turbo would i need
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I would ask myself why 200 bhp ? Do you wan't a useable car or something mental ? If it was mine, I would concentrate on getting it set up correctly and remapped as a G40 and you might be pleasantly suprised at how well it performs. Then you might wan't to spend money on making the car handle the power/torque (if you haven't already).
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I was drag racing with a mates 350 bhp sti type ra and he beat me but i was not far behind now i need revenge i need more power ;D lol
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I suppose the noise of an eaton is a marmite thing Yoof.
I love the noise of mine.
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58mm pulley will be reet for my engine, not the best of news for my chargers as already mentioned.
Turbo's just aint cricket ;)
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58mm pulley will be reet for my engine, not the best of news for my chargers as already mentioned.
Turbo's just aint cricket ;)
Word...
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Don't forget it's 1000 miles till a rebuild Nick ! Gonna be nuts with a 58mm pulley and mapped up.
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Hate to be a buzz killer..
the Above mentioned "350 bhp scooby"
If its the sti 6 type ra.. then it weighs in at 1270kgs and 350bhp .... well ... just check out the little gay calculator
Power at Flywheel (BHP) : 350
Weight without Driver (KG) : 1270
Power to Weight Ratio (BHP Per Ton) : 280.01
0 - 60 (Secs) : 3.77
0 - 100 (Secs) : 9.76
60 - 100 (Secs) : 5.98
Quarter Mile (Secs) : 12.42
Terminal Speed (MPH) : 112.83
Drag Strip Quarter Mile (Secs) : 12.02
Drag Strip Terminal Speed (MPH) : 116.65....
Not even the legendary Yoof is close with his 13.1 quarter turbo polo..
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yoof did a 12.5 at santa pod last year so not a million miles off
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Really.. wow .. im still in 2008 i think?
so what power / rough weight we talking in the polo now ?
realisticly tho Scooby is probably mostly standard and also 4wheel drive..
yoof has spent thousands of not only money but time to get this far..
Dont think sohailg40 will be teaching any lessons in the little 40 ..
Unless therefore the Scooby owner was maby a little keen on his 350hp quote?
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dunno how much yoof has spent but it wont be what it costs for one of those imprezas. the car was running about 225bhp at the time, his faster time was more to do with suspension setup than more power than when he did the 13.1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTLYBk3a2rY
you can hear me & andy shouting "twelve!!!" at the end haha
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Terry- those calcs (although fun) are flawed as they assume alot! To get my 12.5 I apparently need 283bhp ;D
In my experience at Santa Pod, most 4wd cars aren't that quick for their specs...
For instance, a 470bhp RS4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clUseUvsBN4&feature=related
What makes a G40 quick on the road is it's instant torque and lightweight :)
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you all prefer turbo nd K03 can give you app 170-180 hp
but why not G60? Heyesey is telling they are not good for G40 engines...but why that lot of people fm Germany nd Austria are using this conversion?
G60 can blow 1.3 bar with small pulley. You think gear box can't handle this power or?
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K03 is good for 200bhp+ ;D
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K03 is good for 200bhp+ ;D
OK but fm your opinion what is better: turbo or G60 charger ? nd why ? (let's talk about standard G 1272ccm engine)
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g60s aren't very strong chargers, they don't like being revved up really quickly and wont be anywhere near as reliable as a turbo. expect to have to rebuild the charger on a regular basis and to have to replace it sometimes too. Also the power delivery of the charger means it's highly likely you'll be eating gearboxes.
a 200bhp 1272cc turbo engine will be more reliable than a 200bhp 1272cc engine with a g60 on it. and charger rebuilds arent cheap. replacement chargers arent cheap either.
as for which is better, well it's a matter of opinion, you'll have to make your own mind up.
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g60s aren't very strong chargers, they don't like being revved up really quickly and wont be anywhere near as reliable as a turbo. expect to have to rebuild the charger on a regular basis and to have to replace it sometimes too. Also the power delivery of the charger means it's highly likely you'll be eating gearboxes.
a 200bhp 1272cc turbo engine will be more reliable than a 200bhp 1272cc engine with a g60 on it. and charger rebuilds arent cheap. replacement chargers arent cheap either.
as for which is better, well it's a matter of opinion, you'll have to make your own mind up.
regarding price you are right...chargers are not cheap. but they will make more torque than turbo nd torque is thing what accelerate your car. so it means car with carger will be faster than car with turbo (same horse power)...
and what about K04? is this turbo to big for standard bottom or not ?
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Yoof - i had no idea about the 12.5 / 12.7... wat the hell you doing to that polo LOL !
Did you feel that lifting the back end helped alot on the drag ?
I have a PPP subframe im guessing this helps traction and stability too..
I'd like to know more about your polo or this a wee secret project :P ?
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Terry- no secrets here :) http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1160.0.html
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if you mean more torque lower down the rev range then all that does is cause more uncontrollable wheelspin, the slightly more progressive power delivery with the turbo makes for very slightly easier launches and corner exiting, not to mention making life a bit easier on the gearbox. If you mean lower peak torque then i dont agree that you get that with a turbo. k04 is ok but turbos are very expensive, might as well use garrett turbos if you are going to that expense.
g60s aren't very strong chargers, they don't like being revved up really quickly and wont be anywhere near as reliable as a turbo. expect to have to rebuild the charger on a regular basis and to have to replace it sometimes too. Also the power delivery of the charger means it's highly likely you'll be eating gearboxes.
a 200bhp 1272cc turbo engine will be more reliable than a 200bhp 1272cc engine with a g60 on it. and charger rebuilds arent cheap. replacement chargers arent cheap either.
as for which is better, well it's a matter of opinion, you'll have to make your own mind up.
regarding price you are right...chargers are not cheap. but they will make more torque than turbo nd torque is thing what accelerate your car. so it means car with carger will be faster than car with turbo (same horse power)...
and what about K04? is this turbo to big for standard bottom or not ?
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K03 is good for 200bhp+ ;D
As you have proved, but I still maintain the belief that a K03 is being pushed to (or even beyond) the limit at this and is working at exteremly low efficiency, hence people having to use water injection and massive intercoolers to keep the inlet charge temps down, as well as (im assuming) retarding the ignition excessively.
Surely anyone seeking 200bhp must use a larger turbo than a K03 in order to avoid spending rakes of money keeping the charge temps down, all for a setup with poor efficiency.
IMHO I dont think that any supercharger can compete with the turbo as far as performance is concerned, a supercharger carrys no real advandages in a front wheel drive car IMHO. The decision lies with personal preferance, some people are particularly fond of the superchargers characteristics, some like originality etc.
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When testing running 23psi, scrapyard front mount, but no WI on a K03 and I've never seen above 50degC or so inlet temp - and that was with a 25degC ambient and 9.3:1CR. WI is mainly used either because the CR is too high for lots of boost (thanks to 9:1CR Accralite pistons - though off-boost driving is nice), or because the stock G40 pistons like to melt.
Spool-up on my K03 turbo'd car and Yoof's and Robin's (the only others I've driven) is so much quicker than the T25'd car I've also driven - which makes it much quicker in real terms, even though peak hp isn't that different.
Doing crude Corky Bell maths I figured that much more than 18psi on a K03 would be pushing things a bit far. Using various more in-depth turbo-sizing programmes we've got at work they suggested that 22psi and circa 210bhp might be possible before things got really silly - though my VE figures were probably a bit optimistic, even for a well modded 8v BV head.
The dynos suggest that running 21psi or so definitely gives you gains, though I don't think much beyond that on 1341cc with 9:1CR gets you anywhere. The inlet temps remain in a sensible ballpark, which just leaves the potential overspeeding issue. Given that the 20v boys push the same turbos much harder without issue, and that they're cheap as chips, why worry?
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Hmm, I trust what you say Andy, and it sounds like you have clearly researched the subject of using a K03 much more extensively than I have. I must admit that the foundations of my argument lie purely on looking at a K03 comressor wheel and thinking it looked like it just wouldnt flow enough air.
Assuming what you say is correct, how can it be explained that my car made such good figures on 18psi of boost, with no BV head (just an extra 60cc or so capacity) and through a carb with a 25mm venturi?
I could do with fitting a thermocouple to my inlet really to see what its running, im sure my car gets nowhere near 50 degrees though, after heavy loads I have measured both sides of my IC with an infra red thermometer and its usually around 30 C and 20 C respectively, if its high speeds on the motorway then the pipe to the carb is usually cold to the touch. Although this isnt on a hot summers day as you described.
As for the C.R, I have run my standard Spi engine at 1.2 bar and after around 5k miles of abuse there isnt a single det mark in a piston or the head. Althogh admittedly it runs excessively rich on boost and the timing has always been kept conservative.
How much ignition advance do you typically map into a high powered G40 turbo? I have a suspision that there is a lot of horsepower to be gained by obtaining the right balence of boost and ignition advance, and the more advance I can run, the less likely my exhaust valves are to drop, and the less boost I can run, (for the same power)
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Terry- no secrets here :) http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1160.0.html
that was a good read yoof.. Sorta makes me trust more in wat you say..
Glad us on clubg40 have such a talented person on here.
p.s Looking forward to my new charger ;)
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Hmm, I trust what you say Andy, and it sounds like you have clearly researched the subject of using a K03 much more extensively than I have. I must admit that the foundations of my argument lie purely on looking at a K03 comressor wheel and thinking it looked like it just wouldnt flow enough air.
Assuming what you say is correct, how can it be explained that my car made such good figures on 18psi of boost, with no BV head (just an extra 60cc or so capacity) and through a carb with a 25mm venturi?
I could do with fitting a thermocouple to my inlet really to see what its running, im sure my car gets nowhere near 50 degrees though, after heavy loads I have measured both sides of my IC with an infra red thermometer and its usually around 30 C and 20 C respectively, if its high speeds on the motorway then the pipe to the carb is usually cold to the touch. Although this isnt on a hot summers day as you described.
As for the C.R, I have run my standard Spi engine at 1.2 bar and after around 5k miles of abuse there isnt a single det mark in a piston or the head. Althogh admittedly it runs excessively rich on boost and the timing has always been kept conservative.
How much ignition advance do you typically map into a high powered G40 turbo? I have a suspision that there is a lot of horsepower to be gained by obtaining the right balence of boost and ignition advance, and the more advance I can run, the less likely my exhaust valves are to drop, and the less boost I can run, (for the same power)
Tom- only accurate way is a thermocouple, skin temps of pipes are irrelevant. For example I know the skin temp of our V8 cats is 650'C, the EGT is in closed loop control at this point at 950'C.
I'd have thought, that a properly mapped G40 with 9:1 CR would exceed your 1.4 bhp if fitted with a similar turbo set-up, partly due to the finer control over ignition and fuel, but also the larger TB. The Renault 5 boys make do with tiny carbs and alot of boost though, and that's a proven combination- annoyingly quick too!
Good to see someone innovating rather than imitating for once, a refreshing change- hats off to you.
I'm currently modelling a G40 engine in Wave, once I've finished it if you give me some ABD figures I could make some interesting theoretical comparisons- beats buying 5 camshafts ;D
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Tom- only accurate way is a thermocouple, skin temps of pipes are irrelevant. For example I know the skin temp of our V8 cats is 650'C, the EGT is in closed loop control at this point at 950'C.
I'd have thought, that a properly mapped G40 with 9:1 CR would exceed your 1.4 bhp if fitted with a similar turbo set-up, partly due to the finer control over ignition and fuel, but also the larger TB. The Renault 5 boys make do with tiny carbs and alot of boost though, and that's a proven combination- annoyingly quick too!
Good to see someone innovating rather than imitating for once, a refreshing change- hats off to you.
I'm currently modelling a G40 engine in Wave, once I've finished it if you give me some ABD figures I could make some interesting theoretical comparisons- beats buying 5 camshafts ;D
Yeah I know that wall temps are a poor indicator, but with around ambient temps the difference will be relatively low, I will get around to thermocoupling it eventually.
Im absolutely posotive that it would make more power on a car with EFI and the larger TB as you say, the setup I have is about as crude as it gets. Im also confident that with an hours dyno time my car would make a significant amount more, but I just cant be arsed fiddling around with jets to get the carb to fuel correctly, thus is the advantage of mappable EFI.
I have no idea what WAVE is, im guessing its a physics modelling software for engines/pumps? It sounds like a much cheaper way to tune an engine thats for sure! Although as we say at work when somthing fails "well it worked on ProE!" :D
Your car should be spectacular when you get it going with the new turbo, your compressor wheel is ever so slightly larger than mine, and your turbine wheel is the same. Pretty much the same turbo just with ball bearings. Are you sticking for the .64 turbine housing? If you do I would be interested to see what its like for lag etc, mine has a .49 housing but im not sure if this will begin to choke up at much over 230bhp. Keep an eye out for compressor surge, as im guessing you wont really be on the map till your making around 150bhp +.
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I'm currently modelling a G40 engine in Wave
Have modeled the turbo to go with? I have tried a few times to model a sucky/blowy machine but can never get the model to work. I have copy of an old CBR600 turbo engine from Formula Stupid but I am running 8 and the model is in 7 so they are not compatible.
You a fan of 4Stroke Head? Keep getting told that its better for development than WAVE but I find it impossibly hard to self-teach it.
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Tommo - Ricardo WAVE info is here:
http://www.ricardo.com/en-gb/Software/Products/WAVE/
WAVE RT is supposed to be the tits for development given its real-time calc capability - certainly looked pretty good when they were writing it, but never played with it directly myself.
Your car clearly made good power thanks to the better flowing turbo - at around 200bhp on a 1.3 8v Polo engine the K03 seems to be at its limit. We tried Robin's at 23psi, but after taking out enough timing to stop it detting it felt slower than on 21psi - and it definitely seemed to be a decent sweet spot on the dyno.
Still need to take a timing light to a Digifant car to work out the conversion factor between the hex in the map and actual degrees of advance. My own car's not on Digifant, so can't check on that - though at 6k on full-boost my Emerald reckons on giving me 12deg of advance. Base timing is set at 66deg BTDC.
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ooh there's a linux version, would I be right in guessing that it's mind-numbingly expensive?
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if your referring to me/4 stroke head then I know a man who knows a dog about a copy etc
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Hayesey- I have a copy of Wave, can hook you up if required.
Giorgio- not tried 4 stroke, Wave is an industry standard (although it's 50:50 split with GT Power) but of which are very similar.
If you've got hours and alot of data the results are very impressive, our V8 model at work is 99.99% accurate, advantage we have is 4 engine dynos to confirm theoretical changes on!
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99.99% I doth my hat.
After about 4 days of Delab, delex, DibDab, BlibBlop I just want to ram my face through the monitor. Really need to start usign wave mesh
Do you (or where you work) link your models to CATIA. I know there is a way to set the 2 progs up to run side by side so that your cad model will adjust and visa versa. But as you probably know Cov is a useless uni so I am teaching myself so its years away from ever happening.
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Yes- hence why it's so accurate, I didn't do the model at work (Robin's best man did...) but from what I can gather the smallest of details in flow paths can upset the calculations.
It is far easier with a full working V5 model and hundreds of pages of dyno data infront of you.
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Gregg, aka LregG made 189 bhp and 160 lbft at Aldon 3 or 4 years ago with a 1272cc and an Eaton on an AWT kit. He was running toothies and a custom remap, can't remember if he'd ported the head by then, but the valves were def stock. Think that was with a stock G40 cam too.
I think the eaton has serious as yet untapped potential, but requires very precisely manufactured brackets (ie not the AWT kit) for it to work really well, and with modern boost controllers turboing is a much more viable option for most people wanting to get near to the 200bhp mark.
You'll cerainly spend a lot less on a turbo setup than you would on an Eaton setup.
i love the idea of a G60 on my car, and have one at home, or rather my girlfriend has, so I'm sure it will end up on something at some stage.
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though at 6k on full-boost my Emerald reckons on giving me 12deg of advance. Base timing is set at 66deg BTDC.
Thats where the power difference is then, its because I can run more advance that allows my car to make the power. I do run it on optimax though ;D
I should have lower EGT's as well then.
I know what you mean about the 'sweet spot', im so tempted to get my car some dyno time so I can find that on my car. The 18 degrees its on at the moment was just what I guessed was 'safe' when I first built the thing. But because its relatively fixed (save for vacuum advance) if I can advance it a bit more, or even advance it quite a bit more on lower boost for the same power, then I will gain on economy. Sat on the motorway at 80, barely on the throttle, with your timing at 18 degrees BTDC is no good for economy at all lol.
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Bare in mind that mine's 9.3:1 compression on a stock head too - so that affects max advance. It's 12deg at 22psi, but I've not finished that map yet - made 175bhp at 16psi though, so should be 195bhp at 22psi give or take.
The Polo motors are very timing sensitive. At 7psi on a K03 I made only 100bhp with a rough guess map. Adding just 10deg of advance netted 33bhp on top of that.
Interestingly you hit det limit before MBT on my engine - and all high compression 1341cc motors from what I've seen. That's why when Dave Walker did my original base map at Emerald it pinked its arse off - he just used his dyno to map the ignition to MBT, and ignored his ears which'd be fine if he'd got some knock detection kit...
When I complained I got told to lower the CR or use octane booster - as though the engine was at fault. Strange that many OEMs will build high CR turbo motors that also hit det limit before MBT, it does limit your ability to make outright power - but you gain a nice off-boost driving characteristic.
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Im not familiar with the MBT acronym.
Im not surprised you got 30bhp from 10 degrees timing, thats a lot of advance. I think If I could get another 2 degrees it wouldnt be far off another 10bhp.
How do you monitor det when you are mapping? With the knock sensor? I dont really trust them if im honest, although modern ones may be a lot better. But a mates nissan runs all the goodies and it it seems to run with a little bit of det all the time. If you fit a set of det cans to it you can always hear a bit of det when its on full boost, just like dropping a few nails into a bucket.
Im guessing being a SAAB fan you will know of the awesome SAAB knock detection boost retarding awesomeness setup? A mate is slowly gathering together all the bits to fit this to his car.
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saab knock detection is amazing. it does it over the plugs doesnt it?
my mate has a 9000 2.3 turbo its its unreal how well it goes for a standard car with a billion miles on!
id love a 900 turbo. carlson is it?
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MBT = max brake torque, the point at which any more ignition advance fails to gain you any more torque. So on my motor I hit det before the ignition timing is advanced to make maximum power.
For knock detection I like to use my ears, though we're about to invest in some knock detection kit that's pretty much electronic det cans - but with the ability to set up various filters so you're only listening to engine knock.
Saab Trionic monitors the plug ionisation current and compares it against a model to decide what's det. Means the motor can run right on the det limit - and the ECU is left to control fuel, boost and ignition timing with a fair amount of free reign. I have an amusing plot from my car from John Sleath's dyno, where the adaptive mapping has the hump because I've swapped from 95RON to 99RON - so it's trying to tweak itself back. Starts off with nice stable AFR and awesome torque (365lb/ft), then dips massively at 4k rpm as I'd hit boost and det limit there whilst ragging to John's - so it whacked lots of extra fuel into its corrections map at 4k along with more fuel and less ignition - then stabilises again at higher rpm. 20 miles or so more driving and it'd sorted itself out. Just ticked over to 199k and the motor's still going strong.
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Cool, I love saab's, not because they are pretty, or fast or whatever. I just appreciate them from an engineering point of view. Im sure the saab kit my mate has uses crystal knock sensor. It increments boost by .1 bar until it detects knock, then it knocks it back one. There are two pots on the module that allow you to adjust how sensitive it is and what max boost you want IIRC.
Im with you for sure on listening with my ears. The cans are so useful for all sorts of other engine noises too. I remember setting up my mates nissan on the motorway on the way to york drags and I was manning the 'cans, as he accelerates I hold my thumb up whilst there is no det, then as it starts to pink a bit the thumb starts to go down. On this occasion my thumb went down shortly followed by me shouting BIG ENDS BIG ENDS BIG ENDS hahaha. Sure enough by the time we reached the slip road you could just about hear it without the cans on. It had spun the shells in a big end, so with a new rod and shells it was ok. If we hadnt been listening through the cans it would have been too late and the crank would probably have been knackered too.
The only problem is you cant wear them while you are at the drag strip. We have been looking into making a cheap system with a microphone inside a copper tube bolted to the block, playing through the stereo, but it would take a lot of fine tuning to do.
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Sounds like your mate has the APC kit from an old 900 turbo. The G40 uses a similar knock sensor as stock to that kit - but doesn't use it to control boost.
Couple of my work colleagues were looking at pulling old hearing aids apart for their amplifiers to make up knock detection kits, lol.
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Thats it! APC. It comes off the car as full stand alone kit, and is better than the most expensive boost controllers, at a fraction of the cost!
Doesnt the G40 use it to set the timing? not in a closed loop fasion.
Hmm, hearing aid could be as good as anything. I wonder if you can get one with a headphone socket on lol.
Unfortunatly im useless with electronics, I really admire the blokes that make their own ECU's etc, its somthing that I just dont know anything about.
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Personally I think megasquirt is a bit gash, I like the scrap yard nature of the thing but the way they go about configuring it all is a bit electroniky for me. Its like a uni students project.
If I was to do my own EFI it would be VEMS without a shadow of a doubt. Built in map sensor and it will practically map its self in closed loop.
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Do standalone managment systems such as megasquirt realy gain you anything g over digifant other than the obvious that you are more likley to be able to map them yourselvs there not actualy any more accurate or have any other advantages do they ??
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Not really- unless you've got a large amount of time, or are a skilled calibration engineer, you won't see any advantage, the resolution is better on most, and they have additional features too. Main reason why people buy them is because the emulator and wideband set-up to map digifant is getting on for £1k.
Tommo/Rae- VMES and MEgasquirt both have closed loop control systems, and A/F target tables, you're very mistaken if you think the ECU will 'map' itself though, far from it, most will only apply a 10% correction factor on current values at most. Far better to understand and have a human do it for you :)
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gash? scrapyard?
you build it how you like, to work how you like, in a box of your choice. it's not really a uni student project more of an electronics enthusiast's project.
megasquirt + wideband lambda + map sensor = pretty much map's itself too you know.
why pay for a name, when the kit does it so much cheaper and is more configurable....
Yeah, I need to learn more about electronics, 'build it how you like' scares the crap out of me, I want to be told what to do lol. Its just because I dont fully understand how it all works. Im a mechanical person at heart, but knowing a little about this electrical stuff would be a big bonus.
But there are plenty of people who have made their own EFI, not from a kit like megasquirt, but by building it by soldering together microchips and stuff! At the end of the day its only a simple processor with 6 inputs, and the guys in instruments at work laugh when you talk about a cars ECU as if its apollo 13. I tried to get the guys there to turn my old sega megadrive into an ECU so I could change maps by changing the cartridges haha! Thats my idea of a cool car!
I wasnt aware that megasquirt could target values as well. I know they dont map their selves but given enough time it does most of the hard bits for you. If I was to build my own EFI I would deffinitly map it myself, surely thats what its all about? I would be more inclined to use an existing cars EFI system and remap it to work a polo, I might do that once my mate has saved up enough to buy Nistune lol.
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To be fair, a modern ECU is pretty darn complex. Last one I worked on the calibration of at work had 25,000 calibratable variables - some were just single setpoints, others could be 16x16x16 3D maps... Takes teams of people a couple of years to go from clean-sheet design to something that's fully productionised. 6,000 pages of software documentation to read too. Digifant is dead simple by comparison - it's like comparing a gramaphone to an iPod!
Megasquirt is one way of learning, but you end up learning a lot of pointless shite in the process that's unique to the speshness in the way it's programmed/designed when you really just want to be learning about EFI - not how to bodge MS to get it to work. It's come a long way since we used it on Yoof's car, but it is like an overgrown uni project. You also run the risk of listening to (albeit skilled) people with good knowledge of electronic hardware or software design - but who may not really have a clue about automotive electronics.
A fine example is the use of a bloody parallel port connector, and industrial temp range components in the early MS versions. Like I said, it's come a long way since then - and I believe that MicroSquirt was supposed to be a fully automotive spec sealed unit with a proper automotive sealed connector. Dunno if that's made it to production yet though.
Even with a commercial product like Emerald there are improvements to be made, aside from needing a properly sealed case, I've found several software bugs that've done my head in and disappointed me in equal measure. But at least with that you've got some comeback to winge and get a new software version!
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Dave walker with weatherproof your case if you ask. Not sure what it entails but I got a few ordered up as so. Not had the balls to open it up but I assume its probably just some strategically place silicone.
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I know modern car ecu's are a bit more of a complex bit of kit but they are more than just an ECU now it seems, run the whole car.
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Understatement of the century ^
There are loads of processors controlling all sorts of crazy stuff from climate control to central locking. They are easy when you know how (ask Andy).
People actually get paid to reduce the amount of wires that go in cars as there are so many
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Dave walker with weatherproof your case if you ask. Not sure what it entails but I got a few ordered up as so. Not had the balls to open it up but I assume its probably just some strategically place silicone.
Well, the connector's sealed and the PCB's conformally-coated so it's most of the way there anyway... Just needed a better case and properly sealed RS232 connectors for the extra I/O and comms cable. The sealed RS232 connectors are a few quid from RS, and I've got some RTV silicone to seal the case up with - would rather do it myself, but a few years on I've still not got round to it.
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I know modern car ecu's are a bit more of a complex bit of kit but they are more than just an ECU now it seems, run the whole car.
Well, to be fair the EMS ECU tends to just control the engine, but your typical car these days will also have some/all of the following ECUs talking to one another: ABS, body control module (which may contain immobiliser, alarm, central locking, wiper control, heated window control etc.), instrument pack, HVAC (aircon/heating), airbag module, transmission controller (if auto), stability control/traction control system (may be part of ABS, or EMS) battery management system, possibly some 'infotainment' unit controlling satnav/radio etc. Plus there'll be a few other application specific systems to interface with one another too.
Gets bloody complicated whilst developing a vehicle electrical architecture - your auto transmission controller will get the hump if the ABS isn't telling it brake and wheel-speed information, the engine needs to listen to the auto transmission to reduce torque when it's trying to shift gear, etc. etc. Doesn't take much on a prototype vehicle to make the whole system go tits up, but lots of effort goes into obtaining production solutions that are robust enough to be safe and fault tolerant. Anything safety critical has to have a lot of redundancy built into the design.
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Impressive stuff, I do often wonder if these cars will stand the test of time as the home mechanic becomes ever more detatched from what goes on in his car.
I think mercs have been using a system for some time where all major components are linked with a sort of data cable that sends commands with digital signals rather than just switching power between wires to operate stuff. I dare say most cars may be like this now, I have no idea.
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Think you mean CAN Tommo :)
W12 stuff at work has an ecu per fuel pump... ???
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the Bloodhound is using a 750bhp V12 for a fuel pump :-\
Try putting that into the wiring loom ;D
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You will struggle to break 180 bhp with a 40 lader and standard cylinder capacity. I remember Gordan Ray a while back now ploughing good money into his car, only to get 179bhp. Saying that though, Rich Hughes had Jabba's old green G40 and i'm fairly sure that got to near 190bhp and i don't think it had Aquamist, just a chargecooler instead.
You will have to use laughing gas to get to 200 bhp :D
yeah it did 194 i think when jabba owned it, adrian ford had it for a few years after that, not sure if it ever got those figures with adrian, he tried to tweak it to get more.
what happend to Barney?
also why are there rollers so bad then with high figures ? dont they get them checked out
All RR printout were in the history..
170 was the most Jabba got out of it, Ade had 176 then I got 191 which for the record I reckoned was bollocks. Reckon it was about 185.