Club G40 Forum
Club G40 => General Chat => Topic started by: The Duck on March 24, 2009, 10:11:43 pm
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Thought it was about time I said hello.
:-)
How are you all?
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Talk about a blast from the past, Hello.
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Hi there, for some reason I thought you'd sold up?! Didnt you ghave loads of issues with your engine? Hows it all going now? Good to see another familiar name on here from the pitstop forum.
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Ahh,
'Pond Life'
Good to see you out of the reeds, and back in open water..... ;)
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owdo mate 8)
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hello mate...instantly recognised your name! welcome back
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Hello all,
Thanks for your greetings! I recognise everyone's nick apart from Spaniel? Did you change or has my memory got to me? (sorry)
Well yep I'm back. I have been away visiting waters new as we have had a baby duckling. :P
Sam
I did have some probs with my first build of 1341 but my latest seems...(I won't finish the sentence just in case!)
....It pulls well, really really well.... ;)
How are all your motors going? Please feel free to send me your specs!
Jase, you managed to sort yours yet?
Haysey, what you running these days dude?
Well I did think about selling up but decided I should do some final touches to my motor before I resort to this. I had spent too much time and money and learned so much.
Where I want to go is to get my car more refined! I am getting old.
I want to soften the ride a little and play with the diff settings. I also need to tweak the charger belt drive system. I have done the research and have 3 options that I can work through. (Did you know the M45 uses about 50 engine hp at 7000 rpm!?)
I am also designing my own subframe. This should all add up to a car that is better for everyday driving and I should still be able to use the torque when I need it. I may even get an atb diff should I find the subframe and diff work don't tame the throttle steer (plates locking/unlocking).
If it all works I will be getting a respray as the car is now a little bit rough in places.
Oh, and I have to fit my recaro's.
Can't wait!
Well that is enough ranting from me. I have to go to the nest so I'll catch you all later.
All the best
Andrew
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Jase, you managed to sort yours yet?
my car still running like a pig, I didn't get the Buell either, new unfinished patio under water this morning too so on a right downer today, if I can I'll try and get that data for you this eve.
Me
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alright duck
was trying to contact you a while ago as i lost your number after pitstop site went down i was hoping you would come on here sooner or later. good to see you. hows things?
btw i used to be dj chris on the pitstop forum many moons ago if no-one recognises me and yahoo groups before pitstop started.
you still in nanty
have you seen petrified lately, i aint seen him since he borrowed my ecu and brought it back.
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Hi Chris,
Good to hear from you pal.
How is the motor? Yes I am still in Nanty but for how long I am not sure as "she" wants to move because she has a vagina..... ::)
So you still got the red G40?
I have not seen James since I last went over about 2 years ago and he squeezed 4 polos onto his land! Has anyone heard from him?
We should catch up some time!
All the best.
Duck
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good to here from you dude
yep i still got the G40, nearly back on the road but will have a g-lader instead now. making it a bit slower and more sensible. but i have had a few cars since i last seen you about 2 years ago including golf rallye, golf vr6, mk1 golf driver, audi 100 avant 2.6 v6, audi a3 20vt quattro, mk2 golf gti 16v, mk2 golf driver, mk2 jetta tdi, audi coupe quattro 2.2 10v old type, mk3 golf 1.4, mk6 polo tdi, she wants a beetle next. none of these matched the pull of the G40 but the coupe quattro was a proper head turner and felt cool as feck driving it. nice sound to the 5 pot engine.
will have to catch up and perified, do you think he still got the lupo and the G40 saloon
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Haysey, what you running these days dude?
same car but with a turbo on it now 8)
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Hey, good to see you've still got the G40! :)
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ha ha no worries...i was just gettiung into g40's when you were a main player on the psd forum so i recognised the name straight away..proves that g40 owners always come back to their roots!
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Hello all,
Thanks for your greetings! I recognise everyone's nick apart from Spaniel? Did you change or has my memory got to me? (sorry)
Well yep I'm back. I have been away visiting waters new as we have had a baby duckling. :P
Sam
I did have some probs with my first build of 1341 but my latest seems...(I won't finish the sentence just in case!)
....It pulls well, really really well.... ;)
How are all your motors going? Please feel free to send me your specs!
Jase, you managed to sort yours yet?
Haysey, what you running these days dude?
Well I did think about selling up but decided I should do some final touches to my motor before I resort to this. I had spent too much time and money and learned so much.
Where I want to go is to get my car more refined! I am getting old.
I want to soften the ride a little and play with the diff settings. I also need to tweak the charger belt drive system. I have done the research and have 3 options that I can work through. (Did you know the M45 uses about 50 engine hp at 7000 rpm!?)
I am also designing my own subframe. This should all add up to a car that is better for everyday driving and I should still be able to use the torque when I need it. I may even get an atb diff should I find the subframe and diff work don't tame the throttle steer (plates locking/unlocking).
If it all works I will be getting a respray as the car is now a little bit rough in places.
Oh, and I have to fit my recaro's.
Can't wait!
Well that is enough ranting from me. I have to go to the nest so I'll catch you all later.
All the best
Andrew
50 hp to driver the m45 hell thats alot of power wasted
steve
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50 hp to driver the m45 hell thats alot of power wasted
steve
[/quote]
Combined with increased air temperature and the god awful screaming noise, it makes me wonder why anyone would want to fit one? Turbo FTW!
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50 hp to driver the m45 hell thats alot of power wasted
steve
Combined with increased air temperature and the god awful screaming noise, it makes me wonder why anyone would want to fit one? Turbo FTW!
[/quote]
lol sorry but 50bhp at 7krpm ::) (charger rpm or engine rpm?)
100k mile+service intervals ;) sealed oil bath (no need for an oil supply), 200bhp+on a 1341 g40 ;) and if you don't like the noise fit a resonance chanber and an airbox ;) lol i could go on about them all day long.
anyway,
Welcome mr duck :) Quack....Quack
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Yeah juan, I deffinately agree on the reliability side of things and relative cheapness of actually buying the charger. I am well aware of their pros, but also well aware of the cons.
BTW, I didn't quote the 50 bhp loss at 7k. I think the Eaton can run up to 14k+rpm so I would assume Duck (Andrew) meant 7k engine speed?
The trouble is I keep hearing about 200+bhp Eaton charged engines, however I've yet to actually see one that produces the "claimed power" or more importantly actually produces the goods on the 1/4 mile. I'm not saying you can't get 200bhp using an Eaton, it's just not the route I'd take.
Sorry, going off topic there.....
Welcome back Duck. ;D
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im sure that the duck produced 234bhp with his eaton on a safe map
i have gone back to g-lader now anyway as i got fed up of noise and loss of torque at low down revs
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my eaton set up has bags of low down grunt i love it, it scares the shit out of me lol mine has the smaller pully though whitch im told brings the torque back a bit low down as the charger spins up quicker.
sorry for the thread hi jack by the way
welcome back duck i remember you from the old pitstop forum im glad to see you back you seem quite clued up about this lil car and engine
steve
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I'm yet to see a rolling road printout showing an eaton making over 200bhp. In fact I think the most I've seen one make is just shy of 190bhp. Be interested to know if anyone else has got any printouts showing 200+ though.
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i think the 190bhp eaton was greg iirc nice looking car, the car had standard head, standard bottom end, standard pulley
i thought it was a very respectable figure for a standardish engine
tbh i didnt like the power delivery on the eaton and mine had 55mm pulley, PSD gas flowed big valve head, 1308cc lightened and balanced bottom end, large front mount, aquamist, gt inlet manifold, eaton cam etc. but i never had it rolling roaded as i done the pistom rings and damaged valve seats before i could get it on a rolling road. i would have been very dissapointed if it didnt reach 200bhp on the rolling road, deffo felt powerful enough to be, but felt more like a turbo or a valver power delivery with power increasing the higher up the rev range i went peaking at 1.45bar
anyway back to the topic
duck you will have to send me your number again as i lost it
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Hello guys, thanks for all your welcome backs. It is great to see so many of you I remember well still around.
Quack....This turned out to be a bit of a longer post than expected!
Seems like lots of you are interested in the charger drive power. It is easy to work out and can be done for any charger.
You need to know the pulley ratio, flow per revolution of charger, boost map (or efficiency at stated RPM) and your inlet boost pressure.
To give you an idea check out a screenshot of the spreadsheet I created below (click the thumbnails). If anyone wants this xls file please shout.
BTW does anyone know the efficiency of a G-Lader and the flow per rev?? I will post one for a G-lader should I get the data.
The M45 flows 750cc per revolution.
Its boost map is available (see thumbnail)
At 7000 RPM on my setup the charger is doing just over 15000 rpm and has an efficiency of 50% (see boost map in one of my polo albums below, -please tell me should it not work)
At 8000RPM the eaton is an estimated 45% efficient (maybe lower, it is not on the map) and draws 59.8HP from me engine (check out the northern twang!).
Put the boost up and charger power gets even higher, this is the reason many eaton setups are pulling 20+ PSI and struggling to go much above 200BHP. Longer overlap and good flow matching is needed to get inlet boost into the cylinders. It drops pressure ratio, increases charger efficiency and takes less from the engine.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_Eatondrivepower.png) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=Eatondrivepower.png)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_DSCF2215.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=DSCF2215.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_DSCF2222.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=DSCF2222.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_DSCF3535.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=DSCF3535.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_torque1341onsafemap.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=torque1341onsafemap.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_power1341onsafemap.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=power1341onsafemap.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_DSCF2286.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=DSCF2286.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_DSCF2280.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=DSCF2280.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_DSCF2261.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=DSCF2261.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/th_DSCF2259.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e361/2beaks/Polo/?action=view¤t=DSCF2259.jpg)
You can see the power curve shows no timing advance. Looking at the torque curve you can also see the ecu switching to static mixture mode at 6500RPM (The G40 did not have a timing advance data table above 6500 as this was the rev limit, timing above this rpm remains fixed at one setting hence the dip in torque. I think an aftermarket ECU would give good gains here but you really don't need it.
The little polo is in a fairly hefty state of tweakage and I have done lots of little bits that all add up to give a useable, torquey setup. I can always get full power when dry on the tarmac in 2nd, I did do it once in 1st but only once! (the diff is a little bit harsh -I am on that one though) When it is wet 3rd, and if bumpy will spin both wheels in 4th!
I have a great crack in my chassis that I found today to illustrate how nippy the little motor is too!
(Bastard thing, I wouldn't mind but my chassis has had lots and lots of attention and reinforcement. Now it needs some more......)
I really don't think that my 50HP to turn the eaton has been wasted. :P
Since the remap the car is way way quicker. Power comes in hard from 3000 and peak torque now feels at 5500rpm and is savage (best way to describe is it feels like your 2nd turbo just kicked in). The car pulls equally hard really from 3500-8000 apart from the peak where it pulls plenty harder. I don't really drive it above 7K much unless.. erm driving enthusiastically alongside some erm middle aged bloke in his 50K motor with my shopping trolley! ??? for the sake of engine longevity.
I do need to get it back on the rollers to prove out what power she is putting out. My estimate is 240BHP and potentially 260 on a cold day. This means the engine is pulling in the region of 300BHP before charger losses. :o Fire!
To be honest it is too quick for the road (if you can fathom that) and on a cold day still scares the crap out of me.
I do look forward to taking it down the strip should I ever get around to it. Shame it cant be when it is cold.
I would like to see a gearbox that can handle 300BHP and I am sure the engine would be fine for it on a turbo setup.
As for the beauty of an eaton, should you see me I will take you for a spin, just ask.
The charm is good grunt and lack of lag whilst getting the power curve of a good turbo car with almost the low down torque of a G-lader. The G40 unit runs out of real good puff around 170BHP where it can still maintain optimum driveability, above this it starts to feel less progressive. Going back to a quick G always feels a little flat vs an eaton even though they are very potent cars and probably better for everyday driving. Then we have turbos that have to be kept in their happy zone and are in my opinion not even near as responsive when coming on the gas.
Meanwhile I do have to figure out how to quieten my eaton whine (you guys are for sure right about that!) should be easy, - as I seem to be an acoustic design engineer for a living......
If anyone wants some files/pointers on the boost/charger power thing I would be happy to help.
All the best, later guys.
Quack.
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you need to get that thing on a rolling road!
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You can see the power curve shows no timing advance. Looking at the torque curve you can also see the ecu switching to static mixture mode at 6500RPM (The G40 did not have a timing advance data table above 6500 as this was the rev limit, timing above this rpm remains fixed at one setting hence the dip in torque. I think an aftermarket ECU would give good gains here but you really don't need it.
There's no 'static mixture mode' as such - the map in the ECU simply has its last rpm setpoint at 6500rpm. There's a table within the map you can tweak to change the rpm setpoints, thus giving you more map resolution at higher rpm should you desire it. You're still limited to 16x16 fuel and ignition maps though!
I second Hayesey - get it on a dyno. Why not bring it to the next Club G40 or Club Polo RR day?
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Welcome back mr duck ;D
Something doesn't add up here, a G-Lader design is far more efficient at any given boost level than these space heater eaton set-ups, the most power I've seen a well mapped G60 Lader on a 1341cc is 221bhp, I think you're dreaming at 240bhp ;)
Get it on Aldon Automotives rolling road, it's possibly the best comparison you could ever do (being as so many polos have run on it)
My engine used to have an eaton strapped to it, which I have a printout for 223bhp for, although Ben (kingofming) said it was far quicker with the K03 conversion than eaton, when I first got it, it was only making 187bhp too... on Aldon's rollers.
Either way, good to see the duck return to the pond!
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i think 240bhp is easily do-able with it setup correct considering the safe map rolling road had 233.26bhp@7766rpm, with the fuelling sorted out with the proper custom map it needs then i say 240bhp is definately possible.
good to have you back on here anyway dude as you always have something productive to say and always helpful.
i remember that you were giving andy from aw tracksport a drilling with questions at gti international about his ideas on the eaton conversions. he didnt have an answer to most of your questions. it was great
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well - if people want we will organise another club g40 rr day at the end of the season if you want? (and p1ss up of course)
people can battle it out between themselves!
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well - if people want we will organise another club g40 rr day at the end of the season if you want? (and p1ss up of course)
Sounds like a plan!
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Rolling road day sounds fun!
Hey DJ, you got the plot anywhere of your eatoned polo? Or does anyone have Ben's knocking around? It would be good to see a proper torque curve to compare to.
Does anyone have any details of G40 and G60 efficiency (preferably boost maps?) There must be some data somewhere.
Would anyone know the flow rate of these two babies?
Quack.
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i do have a graph somewhere of the map on my polo if thats what you mean
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Here's the spec's of lreg's old eaton setup
induction> Large induction K&N cone air filter, port matched GT inlet manifold, 51mm throttle body.
Type of forced induction> Eaton
Intercooler> AW tracksport
Pulley> Toothed pulley kit
Cylindor head> Standard
Camshaft> Standard
Exhaust Manifold> Standard
Exhaust system> Stock decat downpipe and 63mm bastuck system, single silencer
Fuelling> Stock ECU, green injectors and a PSD remap with an sns stage V base code
Headgasket> Standard
Pistons> Standard cast 1272cc
Rods> standard
Crank> Standard
Flywheel> Lightened
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/royalblue8vgti/RRPLOT.jpg)
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Lreg is really restricted by flow there. Is he still around?
Yoof, I like to dream. Seems to freak you out? So you are assuming that I have the pretty much the same engine as the most powerful G60 1341 you have seen? And it seems you are putting me in the same boat as a 190BHP car you used to own?
How would you feel about asking some of the boys who have actually seen/been out in my car on the safe map? Quite presumptious to judge my car on my charger and CC don't you think? I have carefully planned, spent some duck bread and had some shockers getting my car where it is. (My missus was not happy either) ::)
Lets keep it constructive and thanks for the welcome mate! BTW really good effort on the work you are putting in with the subframes etc. Keep it real.
So when do you guys generally have a rolling road day? Do we have any threads with history RR plots? Did we lose some info with the state of the PSD forum?
I would love nothing more than to compare my safe map to that of now. Surely someone has Ben's plot? (It may be considered optimistic but the shape of the torque curve is a pointer) Is Ben still around?
It seems as if the contraversy surrounding differing results from various setups of 1341's is highlighting some understanding issues with certain members of the forum. If you don't get it, either ask or keep quiet, better not to put your foot in it.
I joined this forum as it seemed quite mature compared with the others out there. I have better things to do than bicker about who has the biggest balls. Surely we are here to learn from each other and enjoy the company of like minded idiots?
I know where club polo is if I want it......
"In simple terms boost is a measure of backup of air the engine is not getting into the cylinders and therefore not being used"
At no point can boost pressure be considered entirely representative of the volume of mixture you have placed in the cylinder.
Something often misunderstood
Lets not compare apples to cooking apples.
Quack....
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We all like to dream. A dose of realism never hurts either, so get to the next RR day to silence any doubters! Been a while since there was a spec'd up Eaton or G60 motor at them. ;D
Agree that Gregg's setup was limited by the head and stock cam (though I thought he'd got an Eaton cam in it before he broke the car?). Even so, a ported BV head will only gain you so much - others have gone to 16v to get decent flow, which is the route I'd take if I was going for 260bhp. To stick with the 8v head and reach that kind of power I think serious levels of boost would be required, or lots of nitrous! The R5 boys do it - modified 8v heads and 30psi+ of boost.
Gearboxes really are a worry though, turbos can be kinder to the gearbox for transient events as the transition to maximum boost is smoother/slower than a G-lader (e.g. I've tweaked the boost control in Emerald on mine to give progressive spool-up even if you mash the throttle) - but there's not much you can do to help the 'box once you're at maximum load. If you're making massive torque, it's going to kill it. Having said that, it's the transient events that hurt the 'boxes the most, so going steady when applying the power could extend gearbox life - I know Yoof's turbo setup makes over 200lb/ft of torque on nitrous (and around 185lb/ft without) and his gearbox has been fine. Not sure what'd happen if a G60 lader was used instead though!
Incidentally - when you got it remapped, do you know whether the calibration engineer altered the map rpm setpoints? If you're peaking at 7800rpm or so it can't be helping power/torque if you're using the same fuel and ignition as at 6500rpm.
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RE: silencing the whine - many OEMs use resonant chambers and carefully positioned baffles to silence re-circulating dump valves, especially in applications that run lots of boost. Similar chambers within the inlet tract are also becoming common place, but require plenty of instrumentation and work in the NVH cells (as well as the obvious desktop calcs) to get right.
Would be very interested to see how much quieter you can make the Eaton, the noise is the sole reason I kept away from them! Worth noting that JLR, Aston and BMW Mini stick the Eaton 'charger downstream of the throttle body to keep the noise down. Not seen anyone do that on a Polo (yet!).
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Lreg is really restricted by flow there. Is he still around?
Yoof, I like to dream. Seems to freak you out? So you are assuming that I have the pretty much the same engine as the most powerful G60 1341 you have seen? And it seems you are putting me in the same boat as a 190BHP car you used to own?
How would you feel about asking some of the boys who have actually seen/been out in my car on the safe map? Quite presumptious to judge my car on my charger and CC don't you think? I have carefully planned, spent some duck bread and had some shockers getting my car where it is. (My missus was not happy either) ::)
I'd be in a whole lot of trouble if a 1.3 8v freaked me out...
Anyway- my comparison lies with your torque curve, the flow/heat characteristics of a G60 vs Eaton set-up and the simalarities between my engine (which kingofming owned) with an eaton set-up (which made almost identical power to yours) and different rolling roads.
I'm not going to argue over bhp/lbft figures- there's nothing mroe pointless, a quick change of nitrous jets and I could break 300hp- whoop de doo.
To be honest- I'm all for pushing these Polos as hard and fast as possible, but whilst being realistic at the same time... did you manage to sort the pulley rubbing on your chassis leg by the way?
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Andy, some great points there mate. Regarding the mapping I have thought about the changing of fueling points but I would like it to remain as is for now. The car is a road car and everyday reliability is paramount. I only use 7-8K rarely and tend to shift at 7-7200 as this will reduce the wear rate of the pistons. Should we be able to source the same 1341 pistons then I may consider tweaking the values and maybe optimising the final fueling point up to 7K. I will have more of an idea when I see the torque curve now it is mapped.
Now Steve is off the scene can anyone else map the G40 ECU properly?
I may at some stage go with a custom ECU. What do you think of your emerald? Would you choose one again with hindsight?
Yoof,
I have never had a pulley interference problem with the chassis leg, in fact I am looking at possibly running a 30mm wide pulley setup but I prefer the micro V belt setup. I want to allow some slippage of the belt under wheelspin/grip transition as I feel this is overstressing the charger and belt setup. I am not keen on the toothed belts.
The issue I had was warpage of the charger bracket due to weld heat (out from true a factor of 4 over what should have been allowed!). I have sorted this with a different machining process and should know the results soon. (The car is still in the air having its bum cleaned and waxed) and I havn't driven it in 18 months.
We had a baby duckling and I needed to save as the missus was off work. :)
All the best
Duck
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Explains alot- I remeber Seve going on about a car that had elongated engine mount holes to fit the crank pulley in, was a black one fitted with an eaton- ironic that the problem turned out to be his own kit!
Hopefully with that torque (circa 170lbft) you shouldn't have too many gearbox woes, and the car should be fairly tractable, similar to a turbo in its power delivery characteristics, should avoid the problems the G60 boys have with broken boxes/shafts :)
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1341cc pistons are easily available, many people are going for Wossners now though to retain the original 8:1 compression ratio. JE offer an alternative at 8.5:1 too - available from Jabbasport.
I've never altered the map rpm setpoints on a car, but I do know where the values to do that are - so may get around to trying it one day if I map a car that needs it. If your peak power is definitely at 7800rpm I think you may see some gains, but it'd mean loss of map resolution somewhere else.
Jabbasport have mapped some G40s on their rollers recently, not sure whether they'd do an Eaton or turbo though - they weren't interested in mapping my turbo a few years ago. Not as cheap as Steve was.
Mapping will be available through myself and Yoof at Polo-PP shortly. I'm waiting for the emulator to arrive at the moment, and will be mapping Hayesey's turbo and Robin's G40. I've already done some map tweaking for Robin, but without an emulator it was very time consuming!
As for Emerald, I'd probably still buy one again - I wanted electronic boost control and switchable maps. Only pain in the arse was I waited over 18 months from buying the system for them to finish writing new firmware for the ECU to allow me to run the closed-loop boost control I wanted, and their software still doesn't have the full functionality.
In some respects, I'd have been better off sticking with the original ECU, buying a seperate boost control module, and sorting out a switchable map module for Digifant (which Polo-PP will shortly be offering!). Long-term it might not've been the best option though, as Emerald's a more open system.
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Everyone have a good easter? ;)
So the 1341 pistons are still available from accralite with a 9:1 compression ratio? Last time a mate asked he was told to order through PSD........
Not much use these days.
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The Accralite pistons give a 9:1 CR with a thinner metal head gasket. iirc using the OE compound fibre board gasket, it's at 8.5:1
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No, they're 9:1 with a stock gasket. Up to circa 9.3:1 with a metal gasket...