Club G40 Forum
Technical => Electrical => Topic started by: steveo3002 on June 17, 2018, 05:54:00 pm
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its for a gt actually but struggling to get info i need ..guess a g40 will be same pinout
basicly i have a code reader ,manual says both K and L line need to be connected , only K line is connected on my car , does anyone know where L line should go ? i.e earth or a pin on the ecu etc
thanks
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Have a look here. There's a few threads that may help. https://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=30.0
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you shouldn't need the L line, just the K. You might find those code readers a bit hit & miss, I've always had the best results using an old VAGCOM lead (with an rs232 connector, that old!) and "VWTOOL.EXE" software. Info and a link to the software you can download here:
https://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=213.0
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right i got it going...was a grubby pin in the join under the dash
measuring blocks- ign timing - its going ape 0-22 and every number between erraticly , is this normal or should it hold a steady reading ?
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yes it's normal for that reading to be constantly moving.
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bah i was hoping that was the problem ..
any pointers /websites i can check my info against , nothing is jumping as dodgy apart from that
no codes to say the o2 isnt fitted either?
gona try another set of injectors i had laying around
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whats the problem you're trying to solve?
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think youve seen me on fb group
basicly its a conversion into a mk2
bad idle,bit bumpy pop pop sound and refuses to start hot - between 3-20 mins , will start with bts undone , drives fairly okay above idle
a few things ive tried /done
timing set as per the book
air bypass mixtured tired various settings ...its set to 14.1 afr via a wideband gauge at the moment
tried another dizzy /cap/arm
tried another coil
correct plugs fitted
earths good
tried another tps
no obvious air leaks + charcoal can deleted
correct 3 bar pump fitted
new genuine blue sender plus tried others i had laying around
engine basics should be fine as ive had the car driving for 2 years on a carb ..ive not touched the internals since
after getting the diag working and cleared the codes non have come back
things i havent tried ...ecu , injectors(got a set will try today ) no o2 fitted yet...i have one but fear it will try and compensate /mask the problem
so while i can get the diag working and obvious stuff like temp and tps is clear if good /bad , im not that clued up what i should be looking for
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what do you mean by air bypass? They should have the lambda/O2 sensor connected but even without it, it should run better than it sounds it is doing, that will be making matters worse though.
has it got the correct air flow meter connected? these have been known to fail, I don't think there's a fix other than replacement. Ideally, you could do with getting hold of a spare to test if you know of anyone else with a 3F engine near you?
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air bypass = screw on side of afm
yes its the correct afm
do you not agree leave the o2 off until its right , its clearly not right and for one i dont want the o2 to try and cover the problem , and second i dont want kill and brand new bosch sensor
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I don't think it really matters, it should run better than it is with it disconnected that's for sure. It shouldn't damage the probe unless unburnt fuel is getting into the exhaust (either because of over-fuelling or a misfire).
I think next I would check the whole engine wiring loom, using a multimeter in resistance mode, checking that the wire to all the sensors goes back to the ECU plug with almost no resistance. You've said the earths are all good, how have you checked that? There's a point in the wiring loom where a load of earth wires are connected together with a metal crimp, I can't remember exactly where it is located though, I think somewhere near the ignition coil but it's been a while! If that's in bad condition then you'll get earthing problems.
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what's the condition of the loom in general? any cutting & joining in it?
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its all been untaped , looks good , any repairs done myself to a good standard , proper terminals used /soldered joins with heatshrink
all checks out to the ecu plug pin numbers , good battery voltage when running ,fatter earths fitted instead of factory ones
wiggling plugs while its running has no effect
got a ecu and afm coming...might as well throw more ££ at it lol
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I've come across GTs with dodgy AFMs before, there's no easy way of diagnosing it that I'm aware of other than swapping for a known good one. So lets wait and see what happens when you put that spare AFM on you have coming.
I had a fault on my g40 years ago that turned out to be the ECU itself, spent ages trying all sorts (fortunately I owned a GT as well at the time so could swap a lot of parts over to test), in the end tried an ECU out of desperation and it worked. I still have the duff ECU, there's nothing visibly wrong, suspect a component on it has failed internally somewhere.
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i will smash whatever it was into 1000 pieces , ive spent way too long messing on it now
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Fpin heck I've just bought a KKL lead and a 2x2 to try to get into my readings... But there's no comport activity into the machine if I "copy com4: con:" nothing gwan.. I'll check for a signal on the actual wires in a mo it's just too hot... If it is TTL serial I'll know soon I'm about to test signal voltage levels I've got loads of FTDI leads around, or could send it through one of the max 232's I've got on devboards with 9pin adapters...
But it would help if I knew the baud rate if anyone knows... I might be able to interpret the packets, I'm guessing it's like DMX with all the values in one packet but it might be nearer USB with a PID-identified packet for each...
But was this doomed to fail from the start?
I'm *struggling* to get VWTool to install or run I've only got machines with XP XOR Usb2, not AND. The VB3 runtime being the stickler The ThreeD controls library is missing amongst others, adding it by hand has just bought more dlls missing messages..
Installing VB6 didn't help (on a windows 7 machine) but that's as far as I can go back (circa 1998)..
Any help appreciated.. The car's throwing in enough petrol to smell and blacken the plugs, and the CO sensor (after a blowtorching) goes up to .8v, but still goes into limp after about 30seconds every time...
All my best sticky-and-hot-in-Leicester regards
NEAL
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It's been a while but I was running VWTOOL.EXE in Linux using Wine.
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Cheers paul! :-) I like the idea of it but
I could run a VMware Windows 98 but it happens to screw up HyperV networking so I just won't be able to do any phone work at the time..
Even then I don't think VWTool will talk to the engine through this lead... It might well be a "canbus-only lead" I dunno, it's software (vagCom) is determined to talk to an "Interface" which I presume is a 2 way thing… It knows the port is there, but "missing interface"? There's just nothing in and out of the FTDI with engine running or not.... It's a lead that said it'll do VW Polo > 1996, but I thought a digifant was used on the MK3 but probably not...!
But if you used it, can you get me the port-speeds and other settings... Various connectors here will do serial over USB or RS232
Once it's cooled down I'll have a dig around.. There's defo FAR too much fuel going through and the O2 voltage goes up to 1v under a butane-torch and about .7v in service so I think the sensor might be OK... Or there's air getting in to the exhaust but taking every spark-lead off 1 at a time makes the engine lumpy so they're all burning I believe.
If it turns out the be the MAP sensor I'd be surprised because it still "flashy-lights" with no use of the charger, it seems time related now...
I'm gonna go out when the sun comes down and get the scope to have a look... If it's serial I can read it, it's the interpretation that might be fun.. If I'm going to interpret the packets then I could do with knowing the data stream is all correct with baud/stop/start bits etc... Just too hot to be in a car
NEAL :-)
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vcds lite works fine on my laptop...struggled to get vwtool working
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I'll look for it when the headaches gone!!
I've been sat trying to get the driver to install that came on the VAGCom CD that came with the lead... The lead has different hardware VEN PID and Class, to the driver.inf pm the CD. Even with that edited to be the IDs of the Lead it installs but the Vagcom thing just throws an error setting it to USB and it's no longer just a comPort.. Using the MS USB-FTDI comport driver gives a port but nothing in or out and Vagcom says "Port OK, no interface"...
There's not a been on the signal line, according to Haynes it's the only signal line, so there's more to it than just recieving a bitstream so I'm gonna give up... If it needs a new o2 sensor every 10 years I doubt it but I'm just gonna blindly change that and hope...
The fuel pump makes a racket, change that after - xmas probably...
All fun when it was
NEAL :-|
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#Steevo, can I ask what lead you've got.. I'll buy one if I need to I've got a 2x2 already.. The KKL lead was about £9 so that can go in a box if you can help me find one I'd smile...
MANY MANY THANKS
NEAL
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Thanks for the pointer, VCDSlite is just the thing thank you... That's taken me to Ross-Tech and there's drivers and everything
Following actual instructions (http://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/support/Knowledgebase/Article/View/23/0/how-to-install-vag-com-4091-kkl-cable-on-windows (http://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/support/Knowledgebase/Article/View/23/0/how-to-install-vag-com-4091-kkl-cable-on-windows)) I have found a driver, and have a plan...
There's an important line in "Have the ignition on when testing the com port", I think that might be the key...
Thanks x 10^6
NEAL
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this is what i used
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAG-GROUP-AUDI-USB-OBD2-II-KKL-409-1-Diagnostic-lead-2x2-Works-VCDS-Lite-V1-2/192453000615?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
worked out the box after i found a grubby terminal on the yellow/white ...and yes ign on
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Hello! :-)
Phew yes, thanks 100% for your help... I followed the video and then read the doc and it worked 1st time...
Interestingly it still wont' work with the supplied CD-r with VAGCom even when it works with Vcds.
It would have worked probably sooner but I was looking for something that wasn't there expecting it to work a certain way when it doesnt'. BUT IT WORKS!! I've seen numbers on the screen with interesting stuff but I need help with some interpreting the results...! BUT IT WORKS!! :-) x 10^3, thank fork.. Sooner the better..!
I've managed to find the engine load was 45% until I isopropanol'd the map sensor, magic.. but it's thrown a few fault codes around that.. Is the air-intake-thermometer part of the map sensor (which I hope is the one just back from the throttle along the plastic-pipe coming from the cooler?) They don't make them anymore at VW, I've found one for a lot of money...
Can I be cheeky and ask for some pointers... I'm not a mechanic but I can read machines.. There's a temperature sensor at -11degrees I think is the problem, but not saying a lot about what it is. I'll register the software if it's free, but it's not having anymore of my money until I get back...
Cool matey, always an honour... If you're anywhere near Derby I'm up that way at a Bar-One comedy all-dayer… Come and get that drink off me!
NEAL :-)
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I think vwtool needs a /really/ old lead. The one I used had an rs232 connector, not even usb.
The map sensor is inside the ECU, I think you're talking about the CO pot & air intake temp sensor. It's normal to get a crazy reading from the air inlet temp sensor, for some reason the software never decodes it properly. See here:
https://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=213.0
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Phew!!! Sorry this is a bit long! Cheers Paul, nice one!
I managed to realise I'd got the wrong sensor-name too, I always get it wrong...! Youre right, it's the co/temp sensot, 220quid of it!
I got vcdsLite going :-D (thanks SteeveO!) but I don't know what is which temperate/voltage/etc exactly, is there a list of what I sould see on here..? I think bank 1-3 are the same as 4-6 (dyou know what I mean?), and I can interpret most (grounding the O2 sensor showed which voltage changed)
It is clever it uses only one line for comms, there's not many 1 wire protocols it can can't be.. I'm thinking "modified open drain/source I2c"... now I've got some activity I will have a look with the scope..
The o2 sensor never goes above 0.4v, except with a blowtorch on it, dyou recon lambda or injectors or pump? Guessing injector-on-time is trying to get the lambda to rise and it's not?
Any of your experience is a great help, thanks! Nothing worse than being alone with a machine that doesn't work! (but it starts and runs lovely but fills the air with the smell of petrol!!)
Wahey, how dyou get to the moon, one step at a time..
Neal
I go away for a bit on Thursday, I'm gonna order a lambda sensor anyway!)
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list from the link above
•523 Intake air temp sensor
•521 CO Fuel Trim Pot
•522 Engine coolant Temp sender
•519 Manfold absolute pressure sensor
•537 Oxygen sensor regulation
•525 Oxygen sensor
•524 Knock sensor
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Perfect, thanks Steeve I think one of these will be the code for the "intermittent unknown fault" it keeps throwing, (while the engine is running).. Mentioned "out of bounds" or something somewhere...
I'm interested too in the measure-bars, any chance you can send the jist of what values you get on yours' (blocks 1 to 3) too see if any of mine are well out? I've worked a few out (the o2 sensor value is on there as a voltage.) I can see some are ignition and injector timing etc, but some just say voltage..
My best thanks, appreciate the help a lot... We'll meet one day I hope, I'll get you a nice drink for this info!
NEAL
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yeah can note down some readings if and when mine runs properly
would be good info for a faq...hot and cold stats for a well running gt and g40
still waiting on postman to deliver the next batch of faulty parts lol
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Right I'm getting a fault "intermittent 07683", any ideas how that fits into the "•523-Intake air temp sensor - •521-CO Fuel …." etc? I've looked at converting it to and from Hex but it's not close...
I ordered a new O2 sensor yesterday, might even be here today... For £15 it's worth a try...
I'll post a screenshot of running values if it ever works.. It's funny but vcdsL doesn't show a fault-code when the engine light starts flashing, but after a minute running or two flashed up with the 07683.. The light flashes but there's no beeping....
Yeah you'll get your car fixed I hope... They're worth it
Bestest's
NEAL
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I don't think that list from that other thread has the correct numbers any more. They look like a conversion to utf-8 characters gone wrong. It's a really old post from 2008 and we've changed forum software since then which involved importing all the old data, some character set conversion errors happened.
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update...replacement afm with anti tamper seals intact...still same
bad idle and no hot starts , drives normal ish anything above idle
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updated info
bad idle,bit bumpy pop pop sound and refuses to start hot - between 3-20 mins , will start with bts undone , drives fairly okay above idle
a few things ive tried /done
timing set as per the book
air bypass mixtured tired various settings ...its set to 14.1 afr via a wideband gauge at the moment
tried another dizzy /cap/arm
tried another coil
correct plugs fitted
earths good
tried another tps
no obvious air leaks + charcoal can deleted
correct 3 bar pump fitted
new genuine blue sender plus tried others i had laying around
spare set of used inj tried with new o rings
spare afm tried
blocked the isv at the tb elbow- no change in running
engine basics should be fine as ive had the car driving for 2 years on a carb ..ive not touched the internals since
still waiting on a ecu to try...them im pretty much out of ideas
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bit bumpy pop pop sound
do you mean it's misfiring?
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i guess it must be an intermitant mis , note changes if i pull the plug lead so its not a complete misfire
drives normal enough no hint of misfire or jekryness
pretty much sounds like a cross between del boys three wheeler and a muscle car with the lumpy idle
see what happens when the ecu turns up...if i had to say whats wrong its like when entering set up mode with the bts off , its ignoring it , timing and mixture out , but its not ? wideband holds a steady reading , not sure it would if bad misfire ?
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right
just the same on spare ecu
tried spare tb , fpr and ran some new wires all the way from blue sender to ecu
no change..
have also fitted o2 sensor now
cant think of anything else to try ? rebuild loom or mess with afm spring
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at a bit of a loss really.
have you tried a new set of plugs and leads?
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yeah new correct plugs in it , tried leads etc
not sure if this is any progress or not...
i took the lid off the afm and with my finger pushed the slider around a bit more while running , sounds much nice ,and the other way sounds worse , so thinking maybe it needs a tweak to richen it ??
or any other ideas why it would be lean at idle
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any ideas on the tools needed to check fuel pressure ?
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Get a fuel pressure gauge and fit it in your fuel line before the pipe enters the rail, this should give you an idea.
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there's a test point on the end of the fuel rail under the wiring connector. Take the small bolt out of it and push a pipe over it (with a jubilee clip to seal it), run this to a gauge with a max of at least 50psi.
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ah yeah...like 6mm or so bolt? would it always be 3 bar or only at max revs?
will look for a gauge on the ebay
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yeah it's a small bolt.
it's a 45psi pressure regulator but the running pressure is governed by vacuum and boost. If its a GT then obviously you'll never see boost so shouldn't go much over 45psi at all.
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Did you get the pressure tested, any luck in general?
I lost a load of fuel from the rail when I was plumbing my new £14 oil/fuel pressure tester in, but straight after, all my lumpy running problems seem to have gone. Coincidence being I'd replaced an oil pressure tester at the same time.. I think I've had some dusty old petrol go through the pump, and the pipe-burst has cleared some rubbish out, or bubbles out, but mine does seem *crack on* just over the course of a dinnertime.. Everytime I've run it out of petrol a bleeding has fixed it, I'm pretty sure now....
And I found the oil leak..! After taking the engine 1/3 out it was the camshaft sprocket-end seal in tatters...!
Cool
Neal
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havent looked at the pressure yet(what gauge did you use)
so tonight ..messed with the afm to make it a little richer , seems slightly better but that wasnt the fault
as it stands now
bumpy idle
blue temp sender undone sweetens it alot /almost fine?
o2 sensor connected = terrible had to undo it
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im running out of ideas fast
all the bits n bobs like ecu/dizzy check out as proper gt parts ....could i have a nz loom ? are they different /same
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This may sound real daft, you're an engineer I bet...!
But is there any difference taking one pluglead off at a time, and one injector lead? And have you earthed *every**thing*? Just a though because I've just got mine back under lambda control by sticking a jumplead between the battery and the exhaust..!
Dunno mate, remember, the more painful the sorting, the bigger the smile when it's sorted.!
NEAL :-)
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bit of success today
drove to a mates house 2 hrs away that has a gt , we swapped loads of stuff and compared wiring , nothing wrong
then tested the fuel rail /isv wiring and mine was differant , turns out my fuel pump relay although it had the same pins and diagram the pins were in a differant order , anyway another relay fitted and it hot starts every time so far
all afm are the same - not great unless tweaked so another thing proved im on the right track
idle is still a bit strange and much worse with o2 connected ...will press on now i can trust it start i can use it a bit more
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Yeehaaa.! Phew yeah you can't beat having a working spare to swap bits, that's been key to my life really, copiers, laptops, the 1st mrs etc :-P... I have never seen an airflow meter on a polo so I go by your better knowledge! I've actually searched but can you just tell me what an ISV is? is it that thing on the back of the engine with a couple of pipes?
Funny but this year I have the odd trouble where I have to wiggle the wires to the fuel relay to get it to pump again...! A new relay didn't help and wiggling doesn't make it go off when I try, but sometimes it doesn't pump...
That £14 meter, I meant to send the link earlier but I've been covered eyeball deep in oil
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/14PC-Engine-Oil-Pressure-Test-Kit-Tester-Low-Oil-Warning-Devices-Garage-Car-Tool/263826779449?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648
Plumbs straight into the oil, and easily adapted for the fuel.. It's got a 500psi meter but shows enough movement to see fuel and oil...
Cool matey!
NEAL :-D
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isv = idle stabilizer valve...round thing under the inlet , think it opens and closes to let more air in ?
yeah weird on this relay ...to a casual glance it all matched up , dont really see how it ran with it but it did , was the last bit we checked too lol
keep it up with the vcds pics , i can try and get some soon , would be good to have a thread showing what it should or shouldnt read
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[edited]Ah, ISV I didn't know there was one on the G models..! [/edit] Oh that big lump of metal round the back with the water and stuff going into it.!!
I (think) thought ours relies on the timing for idle-speed, that nice 1000rpm idle to 800rpm drop, such a noticeable effect must come from somewhere I thought.. Low compression engines are presumably easy to set the idle speed just by fixing the timing interval.? Spark it 32 times/second, that's 960RPM (2 sparks per rev), and can't be faster or slower..? Dunno, any thoughts?
Coincidental but I spent 2 minutes this afternoon with the "lead" connected and working, and then spent an hour trying to get it going again, and it's slipped into "high latency" somehow I don't know.!
I was still searching to see if there's a throttle-position change reading I can use to show me when the dodgy Wide-open switch is working in big letters, only slightly easier than going in with a meter but the way it'd be done if I was a proper bloke!! :-P
I did buy a fuel-pump-single-closing-contact relay to put in mine and could see that the other relay plug had a wire to the normally-closed too so I thought I wished I'd bought one of them instead to make it interchangeable. :-? Maybe it's unrelated (but maybe is), mine does wait 5 seconds after turning off the ignition to shut off the (I am guessing don't quote me) ECU.. Things like the lambda heater and a footwell relay seem to go off after a delay
Cool Steve, now I know a bit more about GT's.!
Happy daze
NEAL :-D
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just heard back from the injector cleaning place
one inj frigged , another works but he suggests not using it
might be one step closer to sorting it :P
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YAHHEEEEE!!!! There's your fat lady warming up to sing then thanks.:-).
Electrically or mechanically dubried.? Leaking or blocked?
How much is a set, can you buy them in singles off a shelf; Or refurbish them?
Intresting stuff!
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dunno whats up , the guy messaged me to say theyre in the post , prob have some report with them hopefully
i have some spares so will send them in as well £8 each to clean /test
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How you doin with it matey? A custom ecu could be the thing if you're still struggling, i wouldn't blame you I like the idea of one but probably not now mine seems to work yahee! Had *great* results with matt's to, they're great when they work!!
Bestest's :-D
Neal
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Don’t give up on it I’ve been trying to sort my running issues for over 2 years now and me and Neal sorted it today.it runs perfect and I’m now smiling from ear to ear.so don’t give up just keep trying one thing at a time it’s painful and frustrating but you’ll find it in the end I did we the knowledge and help of others.they are 25 year old cars they are going to have problems we just need to stay on top of them if you need any advice give me a shout
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not much to report , injector clean might have improved it a little , still has a wierd idle
need to mot it so will see if their emissions reading sheds any light on it
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Cor wish I could tell you that one thing to fix it.
I see you're looking at that new ECU I'd like to see one... I'd like to make one more but I bet there are actually automotive regulations meaning it'd have to go to the DVLA or MIRA something dunno… I'd like to test a RAMPs board output to check it'd drive the coil, fuel relay and injectors but it does normally do small CNC and 3d printers so bound to really. Probably driven from a mega-2560, more memory and inputs/digital outputs than you could throw a stick at. The only thing I might worry is the knock sensor... If it's looking for frequencies then I'll have to re-learn the FFT stuff, if it's just a voltage spike then that's a piece of pee....
Matt,yes, we did well... Specially after it all worked, and then suddenly wouldn't start for a bit, heart in mouth!! You've seen me do my thing, no worries!
Cool matey, nice to chat
NEAL
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took it for an mot today
pig rich 9-10%
i can adjust the afm to get it sensible but it runs terrible , really isnt right and doesnt like not being rich
tried an unmessed with afm and the same , makes sense why the o2 sensor makes it worse , its trying to lean it out and for some reason the car doesnt like it
im out of ideas lol
fuel pressure gauge turned up...seems on spec
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysAK8fcrReI&feature=youtu.be
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Mate I’ve just had a read of your post I feel for you.soinds like we’ve had same issues.mine only seems to be co pot now it now has 2.94v going to it and seems to be running better and now finally have 12v going to the heater on the lamba sensor.but it’s been one hell of a struggle to get there.and it seems bleeding the fuel rail helped no end.still not happy with timing even though it’s finally sitting on the z mark im about there I think.but I hope your finally getting there with yours now.
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i *think* i might have sorted it
had all my meters set up and tinkering around in the bay while the readouts settled , i happend to wiggle the injectors , now its idling fine with a normal exh note and good readouts on the emissions with the afm close to standard
so guessing an o ring wasnt seated, not sure how its played up for so long , its had 3 seperate sets in it , manifold off at least twice ,sprayed carb cleaned around em, unless its coincidence and ive touched something else , but it did point towards an airleak all along
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WOW YEHAAAAA! :-D x 10^6 Glad you've got a working machine again!
All that messing you'd have thought might have moved something previously! Maybe a combination of the many.!
I am glad.
Both mine and Matt's seemed to cure themselves with some unknown knock of something, I still blame crunchy wiring on mine!! They both stopped working properly on their own too..
Mine was running seemingly perfectly up to last week and then stopped running today! It had an antifreeze-change last week so I started it today to check, it ran for 10 mins then backfired a bit then stopped and won't fire up again.
I am thinking there is too much more water coming out of the exhaust when I leave it standing a while, I think it is leaking coolant into a bore, if it is I'll have to fix it... Sticking the scope down it might show more, maybe next time it's above 15 degrees outside. That's if it doesn't drip out when I take the spark-plug out! It can't be much, it runs OK normally, but I wouldn't trust it under load.
I'll PM you, things've changed a bit.
NEAL
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Started the car up to warm the water up before changing it... It's not been started for ages, I expected quite a it of water to come out because it was cold but it was like a vape, massive clouds of steam and quite a spray from the exhaust, then it cleared, sound...
Took the water out, left overnight, put new in, started, not a drip...
Left it 2 weeks, started it, massive cloud, ran for a bit, then started backfiring I think out the inlet, it wouldn't rev, then died, and just won't start again (or for the half hour I tried)
'Think there might be water in the petrol-tank? Should it even be a consideration? It has sat for 10 years, could that be the problem?
I'm away for a bit soon so it matters not, but it will when the sun comes out...
Greetz
NEAL :-)