Club G40 Forum

Technical => Engine and Transmission => Topic started by: hayesey on January 01, 2009, 09:12:57 pm

Title: fitting new tappets...
Post by: hayesey on January 01, 2009, 09:12:57 pm
when fitting brand new tappets to a head, do you need to leave them soaking in oil for a bit before hand or just put them in, run the engine and wait for them to stop being noisey?   8)
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Robin on January 01, 2009, 09:16:31 pm
thicko
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: hayesey on January 01, 2009, 09:17:54 pm
hmm....where's the ban button gone?
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Nick_S on January 01, 2009, 09:20:49 pm
Hydro tappets are self bleeding, so you should be fine just dropping them in. If you have a problematic one, you can always leave it bleeding over night by turning the cam until appropriate lobe is fully opening the valve.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: breadman on January 02, 2009, 09:58:57 am
I too have always left hydraulic followers submerged in fresh oil overnight as you suggested Paul.
I'm not sure where I got this tip from, but I've never had a problem this way. As Nick said, they are self bleeding but IMO they should be full of oil prior to fitting.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Fred on January 02, 2009, 10:20:22 am
One thing i do is to get a clean plastic measuring Jug and fill a 3rd full of clean engine oil and put 1 Tappet upturned in the bottom then i use something like a long extension bar to press the centre in and out several times till the bubbles of air stop pumping out of the oil feed hole on the side.
This indicates that the Tappet is charged with oil and when all is assembled and you start the engine there is no noise at all.
In my MK2 Haynes manual (worth having both MK2&3) it states that you should turn the engine over with dizzy cap removed to prevent starting so the Tappets can be charged with oil prior to starting.
This is what the MK3 Haynes Manual says- Warning: After fitting hydraulic Tappets, wait a minimum of 30 minutes before starting the engine to allow the Tappets time to settle, otherwise
the increased stroke may cause the Pistons to strike the Valve Heads.
The Plastic jug bit has always worked for me.
Regards, Fred.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: breadman on January 02, 2009, 12:20:44 pm
One thing i do is to get a clean plastic measuring Jug and fill a 3rd full of clean engine oil and put 1 Tappet upturned in the bottom then i use something like a long extension bar to press the centre in and out several times till the bubbles of air stop pumping out of the oil feed hole on the side.
This indicates that the Tappet is charged with oil and when all is assembled and you start the engine there is no noise at all.
In my MK2 Haynes manual (worth having both MK2&3) it states that you should turn the engine over with dizzy cap removed to prevent starting so the Tappets can be charged with oil prior to starting.
This is what the MK3 Haynes Manual says- Warning: After fitting hydraulic Tappets, wait a minimum of 30 minutes before starting the engine to allow the Tappets time to settle, otherwise
the increased stroke may cause the Pistons to strike the Valve Heads.
The Plastic jug bit has always worked for me.
Regards, Fred.

Yeah Fred, 'tis a good point that in the Haynes manual.
The only reason I pefer the submerged oil overnight method is there is no chance of damaging  the tappets. Plunging the tappet centres can mark faces, they are easily marked.
Prior to starting I turn the engine over by hand, pouring oil over the cam so it runs down onto and around the tappets. I always used Graphite engine build grease on my Ford Pinto's cam and during the short engine assembly - never tried it on the VW engine though.
By the time I've got the cam cover back on and done some final checks everything is nicely settled in. Then I spin it over on the starter to make sure it's got oil pressure and everything is ok. Plugs back in, and (hopefully) it should start.

I've never had an issue with excessive tappet noise using this method.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Nick_S on January 02, 2009, 09:18:56 pm
I just used the engine turnover (hall sender unplugged) to bleed mine and circulate the charger with oil too. You have to press that nipple on the underside in order to pump/bleed the air out. There are a couple of springs and a ball bearing in that pump part, which you can easily remove from the cam bucket if wanted to see how it all works.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Fred on January 03, 2009, 07:42:58 pm
Yeah Breadman. i forgot to mention that i had a pop bottle top on the end of my extension bar so that i wouldn`t Mark/scratch the piston on the underside of the Tappet.
And to you Nick as you`ve quite rightly stated- I was at DK Dan`s one night when he and Ray (i think it was Ray) was stripping the Head off Dan`s girlfriends MK4 Polo after the timing belt snapping on her. We were chatting about Various bits and the Hydraulic Tappets came up.
I`de stated that i`d just replaced mine in me mk3 coupe 1ltr as they were getting quite noisy.
This is where the Harsh reality came home.
Ray said- You only need to replace them if there badly scored or worn on the cam lobe contact face and proceeded to tell me this. If you get a piece of soft wood, say a flat bit of pine wood and lay it on a solid base (floor or bench) and hold the Tappet in your hand with the underside facing downward and wack it down on the wood it releases the piston wich as you`ve said Nick is a couple of tiny springs and a Ball Bearing. Note the arrangement and remove the components. Then use Carb cleaner or a suitable solvent with stiff nylon brush and clean them out and re-oil with clean engine oil prior to re assembly. The Reason they become noisy is mainly due to Carbon and general oil muck that builds up in them.
Had i have known this then i could have washed out the originals and placed them back in.
Instead, i had 6 other originals and 2 GSF ones wich i used.
The Harsh reality is that i chucked the ones i removed in with a pile of scrap in the corner of my garden and when home i went straight to retreave them but they had gone rusty beyond service. Arse!  Lesson learned.
                                         Fred.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: PeteG40 on January 03, 2009, 08:12:39 pm
they will wear to each other tho...

so new cam - new tappets i'd say

or refurb - keep them in the same cylinder!

pete
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: hayesey on January 03, 2009, 10:12:26 pm
Fred, those tappet rebuilding instructions are from the Club GTI website, sounds like Ray has read that, exactly the same procedure.  It is a good idea but I thought you were supposed to replace them when fitting a new cam as like pete said, the face wears with the old cam and wont be flat even if it looks it.  Wont cause huge problems but means you'll be wearing out the new cam lobes in a non-uniform way.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Fred on January 08, 2009, 11:18:05 pm
See what yer getting at chaps and i agree with you.
I had to do something with mine in my 1Ltr as they were Quite
noisy.
I just replaced them because i didn`t know you could clean them out.
Being as it was my 1Ltr engine and the fact that my G40 engine is going
in the same car i didn`t really want the expense of a cam as well.
Other than that Paul, Yes if i had to put a New Cam in my G40 engine
then i wouldn`t hesitate on the Tappets and would no doubt fork out for the
Genuine items rather than GSF items.
That said i think its possible that my G engine hasn`t got genuines in anyway
looking at a receipt of engine work done back in april 07.
It`s daft to think that i`ve chucked Genuine Tappets away for no reason really
but then most garages would have replaced them as well rather than fart about
with them.
We Live and Learn.
Reminds me of an old saying,
A man Who`s never made owt wrong has never made F**k all.  ;)
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: PeteG40 on January 09, 2009, 09:13:57 am
i think you might hesitate fred when you find out vw tappets are about 3x the expense of gsf ones which are about £5 each.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Dan on January 09, 2009, 10:36:32 am
Ones from GSF are made by INA, which I wouldn't hesitate to use  ;)
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Fred on January 09, 2009, 11:47:42 am
I priced up GSF Tappets a couple of week ago at the Accrington Branch and they were £7 odd each.
I expected Genuine to be Around £140 for a full set.
Also Dan i didn`t Know GSF Tappets were made by INA as are Genuine ones.
The only others i`ve seen that are INA are the ones on g-laderseite wich are identical to Vag 1`s here.
Maybe i`ll Fit GSF afterall. :)
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: hayesey on January 09, 2009, 12:35:46 pm
the thing with GSF I find is, you can go in one day and buy a part made by a decent company and then go in the next day and buy the same part and it'll be made by a totally different company.  So might not be safe to assume that any polo tappets you buy from these will be made by INA.  They just seem to buy stock from loads of places.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: PeteG40 on January 09, 2009, 12:37:30 pm
you get to know the men behind the quarter. They know me and sam won't accept no shite and will delve to see if they have oem quality!
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Fred on January 09, 2009, 02:12:11 pm
Thanks for that Paul.
I`ve found the same and as Pete says i`ve kinds got to know the staff at Accrington fairly well
so i`ll get them to dig deep as well.

What engine Bits are safe to buy from them assuming OEM Quality.

Fred.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Nick_S on January 10, 2009, 12:49:02 pm
Yeah its hit and miss with the suppliers at GSF, so you need to be on the ball! Makes sense for them like all businesses, not to keep eggs in one basket just incase of supply chain problems.

My last set from GSF were INA (green and white box)
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Robin on January 12, 2009, 06:28:09 pm
I am using non VW OEM ones, i got mine from ECP for £9 each.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Dan on January 12, 2009, 10:19:34 pm
I wasn't aware GSF sold anything other than INA tappets. Either way, I won't accept cheap parts that are sub standard.
Title: Re: fitting new tappets...
Post by: Fred on January 13, 2009, 12:33:11 am
well if GSF`s are INA then why are they totally different.
I can only guess that its a copyright thing but putting the two side
by side theres an obvious differance in Quality.
Fred.