Club G40 Forum
Club G40 => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Hunor on January 04, 2015, 11:09:29 pm
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Hello guys, in advance I apologie for my english, I'm from Transilvania.
Last summer I have started a project: to swap the original 1.1 VW engine with a 1.3 G40 engine in my Trabant, and to make it turbocharged. In romania we don't have G40 experts and not even G40s, I barely found an engine donor (don't start throwing rocks, I didn took apart a good G40), so I need to rely only on online documentaton, so imagine how happy I was that I found this forum.
At first I would like to start with presenting my car: I'm working on it for la last 5 years. In this time i have changed the 4 speed gearbox for a 5 speed (code WW0 from a Golf1), servo brake, FK inoxline adjustable suspension, 50mm stainless steel exhaust, Opel Corsa Sport ventilated front disc brakes, and more others.
Now comes the hard part the swap. I have finished the exhaust manifold and the downpipe, I'm using a k03 turbo (the cold part and the midel part from a Skoda 1.8t, the hot part from an Audi). I have the original wiring form the G40, the stock engine, and I think the original gearbox. The questions ar the following:
1. What should I change in the wiring to make the conversion from the G-lader to the turbo?
2. I need to change the map sensor? I'm planing on running on 0.7-0.8bar boost at the beginning with the original chip, then go up to 1 bar when I can get a new chip.
3. For this configuration the original intercooler is enough or I need a biger?
Thx in advance for the help, and if you are interested I will keep you posted on the project.
In the pictures I use the original 1.1 engine as a dummy, it's easier.
(http://4.t.imgbox.com/ZcyYTJ5H.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/ZcyYTJ5H) (http://9.t.imgbox.com/0TZhng2I.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/0TZhng2I) (http://0.t.imgbox.com/3M4gOQVs.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/3M4gOQVs) (http://2.t.imgbox.com/5l1eax06.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/5l1eax06)
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hello! Welcome to the forum.
It's nice to see a Trabant G40 on here, pretty sure you're the first member. I've seen pictures of them before. I have driven a Trabant with the older 2-stroke engine in it, it's an experience, I imagine it must be pretty scary with even a standard G40 engine in.
For wiring with the turbo the only thing I changed was removing the full throttle switch and using a pressure sensor set at around 6psi. This is because with the turbo you can still get quote a lot of boost when not on full throttle. I think there will be information on this in the engine or wiring sections on here. You will need an ECU chip to suit though.
With 1 bar or less there's no need to change the map sensor. It's only if you want more than 1 bar that it needs swapping for a higher rated one.
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Awesome! Welcome to the forum. Please keep us updated with the progress. Have a look through the turbo section here, there is loads of good info in there.
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Excellent project!
I'd recommend a bigger intercooler, but I think if you just go with whatever you can make fit it'd be fine! You'll also want to change the G40 camshaft for a different one - a 3F (Polo GT) camshaft is a better place to start, or ideally a 254° or 268° aftermarket camshaft from Piper, Schrick etc.
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From which car can I use the pressure sensor? because I couldn't finde an universal one. Until I finde someone who can make a costum chip, the stock one will work with a pressure sensor at 6psi, an 0.8 bar boost, the original map sensor, and a BOV (i dont know yet what kind I will buy)?
About the camshaft... here in romania you can't find to easy a Polo GT so for a while it stays stock (and because its a buget build i can't afford to give 2-300euro for an aftermarket one)
With the original internals what is the highest boost that I can run in a daily driven car?
For the oil cooling what is better, water or aer cooling?
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Hey guys, can you answer the uper questions? And I would add a nother one: insted of the GT f3 camshaft can I use one from a golf 3 1.6 ABU?
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For a pressure switch, the type used with water injection kits work well (Aquamist etc...). I got mine from this place:
http://www.pvl.co.uk/no-nc-contact-pressure-switches.html
You'll probably find stuff on ebay too.
As for the cam & a remap, it's not going to work very well using the standard ones. It'd be better staying with the G-Lader if you're not going to change those things. The characteristics of the standard cam don't suit a turbo. A GT cam is a compromise to save money, ideally buy a shrick 268/268.
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I have a brand new PVL pressure switch for sale of you want it
PVL prices are always going up!
Already set to 6psi
Let me know if you want it I can find it out
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I wrote a mail to PPP, and soon I'll get on offer for a chip (made for the specs that my engine have) and for the shipping price to Romania.
I already orderd a pressure swich from the ebay. And I'm planing on buying a new cam but i don't have yet the founds for it, thats why I asked about the cam from the ABU, because I have one home.
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I've never tried one but I think an ABU cam should work better than a g40 one.
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ABU is fairly close to 3F in duration and lift, so might work okay. An aftermarket 268° camshaft would be even better.
What variant of K03 are you using? If it's one of the largest ones, then an ABU or 3F cam might work well.
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I just talked to soneone who has majured an F3 cam and an ABU cam, and they ar the same. So the cam problem is fixed for now :D
I'm using a combined K03, the air intake part and the middel part (with the turbines) are from a Skoda 1.8t 150bhp, and the exaust part is from an audi K03. They fit together perfectly.
Now I'm waiting for an answer from PPP.
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an ABU cam and a 3F (as in GT) cam? Fairly sure they're not the same.
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ABU and 3F are slightly different according to my info:
http://www.clubpolo.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=235735&p=2166614 (http://www.clubpolo.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=235735&p=2166614)
(http://www.clubpolo.co.uk/forum/uploads/monthly_09_2011/post-390-1316295236.jpg)
You have an email back from PPP Hunor. ;) For some reason your replies had gone into our spam folder.
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I've got the mail, I like the offer, I sent a reply with some questions. Probably next month I'll order the chip, till then I need new and bigger injectors :D If the chip is for 250cc injectors can I put biger ones in like from a Golf mk4 1.8t, 317cc? You guys throw around with G60 injectors and GT parts like you could find them at any corner :P In my whole life I seen only one G60, and I can count all of them in Romania on one hand.
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Any high impedance Bosch 250cc injector with the same pintle arrangement is suitable. Are there many Saabs in Romania? I think some of the 1994-1998 Saab 900s (non-turbo) had 250cc/min injectors, not sure what the pintle is like on them though.
Cheap set on UK eBay here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Saab-900-GM-Blue-Fuel-Injectors-0280150432-/111573206684?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19fa48069c (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Saab-900-GM-Blue-Fuel-Injectors-0280150432-/111573206684?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19fa48069c)
Bosch Injector flow rate info here:
http://www.polog40.co.uk/article_injector_table.php (http://www.polog40.co.uk/article_injector_table.php)
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Hello guys, I'm advancing very slowly but steady, it's hard to work on the car when you are 100km away at the university. I made the new engine mounts, modified the throttle cable to fit the stock pedal. I took of all the parts from the engine what I could, cleand and painted it. The flywheel was lightened, they removed around 0.77kg. I found some injectors from a Golf mk4, 1.8t, 258cc, I hope they will be ok, for the new soft, what I hopefully will order next month from PPP (I'm missing 10£ for the shipping). Tomorrow I will order a 7 row oil coller, I hope it will be enough, and a boost swich. I've got an intercoller what I hope i can mod to fit the small place under the front bumper. For now this is all, I hope in a few weeks I will be back with a painted enginebay and a semiassembled engine.
(http://6.t.imgbox.com/v9QtvGUc.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/v9QtvGUc) (http://1.t.imgbox.com/d3rWSEwk.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/d3rWSEwk) (http://2.t.imgbox.com/sd4V2GKO.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/sd4V2GKO) (http://7.t.imgbox.com/VMbdjEO8.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/VMbdjEO8) (http://4.t.imgbox.com/qrpJwr5G.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/qrpJwr5G) (http://1.t.imgbox.com/VjnezKoV.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/VjnezKoV) (http://5.t.imgbox.com/DOXTWgHW.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/DOXTWgHW) (http://7.t.imgbox.com/wbNCrQ6W.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/wbNCrQ6W) (http://3.t.imgbox.com/SJEdCscs.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/SJEdCscs)
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If u are looking for a cheap alternative to the oil cooler, I recently fitted a second hand oil cooler from a punto gt. It came with a thermostatic plate, 8 row cooler and the feed and return lines. Maybe you could source one out and save yourself some money for the new software. All you need to fit that is the central bolt out of an audi 1600cc 16v engine, cut the bolt in the proper length and it will bolt right on!
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Thx GR40, but this oil cooler is around 20£, and a second hand oil cooler is at least 30-40£.
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Has anyone a wiring loom diagram in PDF format for a '93 G40?
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I'm back with some updates on the project. The last two weeks I was working on the car: I got rid of the old 1.1 engine, cleaned and painted the enginebay, and finaly got the G40 engine and gearbox in the car. I modified the downpipe to clear the new golf mk2 radiator, modified the intercooler to fit the space behinde the front bumper. I got an opel calibra oil cooler, now i need to figure out the oil lines, and the water line for the turbo. I'm done with the new coilovers and brakes. Next time when I go home I hope I will finish the piping for the intake.
(http://7.t.imgbox.com/FxGsNgjB.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/FxGsNgjB) (http://0.t.imgbox.com/bk7mqVtQ.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/bk7mqVtQ) (http://4.t.imgbox.com/U4mr4ceY.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/U4mr4ceY) (http://1.t.imgbox.com/hqU66Zc1.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/hqU66Zc1) (http://7.t.imgbox.com/02IV6KLJ.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/02IV6KLJ) (http://2.t.imgbox.com/wc2IPiPy.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/wc2IPiPy) (http://6.t.imgbox.com/YCIaieFf.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/YCIaieFf) (http://7.t.imgbox.com/9ys0emay.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/9ys0emay) (http://2.t.imgbox.com/wQAvjCvw.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/wQAvjCvw) (http://6.t.imgbox.com/cNfNtdpG.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/cNfNtdpG) (http://9.t.imgbox.com/ecVutU55.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/ecVutU55)
And I found a wiring loom diagram :P
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Somebody have an idea why I can't get in touch with PPP via mail? I want to buy urgently a chip for my project.
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I'm back with some updates: new disks for the brakes, double heatwreaping the downpipe, I mounted a Golf GTI oil cooler. The boost swich, the BOV, and the boost controler got here, and the silicone hose and oil cooler adaptor are on the way.
A few days ago I made the payment to PPP for the new chip, I hope I will get it in time.
(http://3.t.imgbox.com/lhhSBgkg.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/lhhSBgkg) (http://4.t.imgbox.com/JYCT9jEY.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/JYCT9jEY) (http://5.t.imgbox.com/wWWnerUW.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/wWWnerUW) (http://6.t.imgbox.com/UNJw3Me3.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/UNJw3Me3)
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Can I use this as a line for the boost controler, boost swich and boost gauge?
(http://0.t.imgbox.com/dsDPu6zu.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/dsDPu6zu)
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I think this is smaller in diameter than the rest of the vacuum lines. I would use a T piece on either the fuel rail pressure regulator or the outlet on the brake assist vacuum line.
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All of these have 2.5mm in diameter. The boost controler-accutor needs pressure (boost) to open, just like the boost gauge, not vaccume, right? The fuel rail pressure regulators line doesn't conect to the brake assist vacuum line, beside the ECU's vaccum line?
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Can I use this as a line for the boost controler, boost swich and boost gauge?
(http://0.t.imgbox.com/dsDPu6zu.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/dsDPu6zu)
That connection is specially placed next to the throttle butterfly (throttle plate) inside the throttle body. It is used to control the emissions valve to the carbon canister. I think its special position is designed to stop the emissions valve opening at idle. I may give strange results if you use it for boost control. The fuel pressure regulator and ECU see both vacuum and boost through their connections depending on the boost return valve being open or closed. The brake servo reservoir has a non return valve so that it does not lose vacuum when the engine is running on boost; a G40 manifold has vacuum most of the time when running. It is only near full throttle when the manifold pressure becomes positive.
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Thx for the answer, in my case the emissions valve won't be a problem, more precise there won't be any emissions valve ;) For the BOV I'll take a vaccum from the fuel pressure regulator with a T piece. For the boost controler-accutor, boost swich, and boost gauge I will take a line from somewhere befor the throtle body.
Guys, if I'm wrong please corect me.
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Hey guys, who can tell me why can't I get hold of the guys from PPP? I would like to know that they sent me the chip or not. I sent them 90£ two weeks ago via PayPal and I didn't get any confirmation, nothing. I would just like to know that they sent it or not.
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Have you checked your spam folder? sometimes their emails dont go into the inbox
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Nop, nothing, I check it every day
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Try sending another email, they are very busy and this is their side business. It will be worth the wait
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I have sent them 2 or 3 mails, two messeges on their site. The problem is not the waiting, it is the doubt that I will get something or not. I'm from Romania, and in this country we can't trust people, and we don't do stuff like sending the money in advance. In this case I sent it because I trust that the people from the UK have a different mentality. I hope I'm right ;)
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I would be very surprised if you did not receive what you've paid for. Both Andy and Pete are top blokes but are exceptionally busy, I have absolutely no doubt you WILL receive your parts, they just have a lot on. I know Andy works a lot and I think travels a lot with work so perhaps hasn't had the chance to sort PPP issues out.
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This is the reason why I trust them, everywhere I searched them I found only possitive feedback, so finger crossed for that the chip get here for our annual meeting
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Hi Hunor,
I don't think all replies from me are getting through - please try adding *@poloperformanceparts.co.uk to your trusted senders list!
The chip is showing as being in Romania, so should be with you tomorrow - you can check its progress here:
https://www.royalmail.com/track-your-item (https://www.royalmail.com/track-your-item)
Item number is: RN026629235GB
There's been a bank holiday in the UK which will have added another day to the original shipping time.
Andy
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The chip is here, hurra ;D ;D ;D ;D
Andy, I don't understand why the replies don't get to me... but in the end the chip is here, Thank you very much. If you ever need any help from here you can always count on me.
I forgot to ask how much HP shoud I expect with this G40008 chip, 250cc injectors, 1bar boost, ABU camshaft, lighter flywheel, 50mm exaust sistem?
Meanwhile I heard some interesting stuff, please enlighten me :)
Someone who in theory is a G40 mecanic sad that the timeing and idling should be set in the learning mod of the ECU. But he wouldn't tell me how to acces this mod, saying that this is his secret...
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When the engine is warm (wait for the cooling fan to cut in), you unplug the blue temperature sensor. This puts the ECU into "service mode". In this mode you can adjust the idle speed and the base ignition timing, as the ECU runs a fixed amount of ignition advance in this mode.
When you've made your adjustments, plug the sensor back in and away you go.
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Hello, I'm back, the car is on the road, but i have an entire list of problems... Where should I begin... I made the wiring, the vacuum lines, etc. The main problem is that I adjusted the ignition advance, to 6° and the idle to 1100 rpm in service mode, but when I plug in the blue temp sensor the ignition advance moves about 3cm backwards, and the idle rise to 1400-1500 rpm.
What can I do?
And some pictures:
(http://7.t.imgbox.com/FByKbVOo.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/FByKbVOo) (http://6.t.imgbox.com/I50IasUV.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/I50IasUV) (http://2.t.imgbox.com/2vBiEcav.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/2vBiEcav) (http://7.t.imgbox.com/UFL4ur2o.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/UFL4ur2o)
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When the blue temp sensor is plugged back in the ECU takes control of the ignition advance again. It varies the ignition advance to control the idle speed. The idle speed should be set to ~900rpm, so you've set it too high - the ECU will be retarding the ignition advance to try to reduce the idle speed.
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k, i got it. someone sad that I should take the car and measure the CO2, and should set it from the screw under de blue cap on the air temp sensor to get 1.5-1.8 value. what do you say abaut this?
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I made a mistake in the previous post, not the CO2 shoud be 1.5-1.8, the CO should be at that value. Today I was at a service and we measured the emission, the CO in service mod was over 8, and I couldn't get it under 5.4. It was sugested to me that it gets to much fuel, and I should put back the 200cc injectors, this way we might be able to resuce the CO value to 1.5-1.8. Guys, help me, what do you think about this?
(http://5.t.imgbox.com/YyHGm50t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/YyHGm50t) (http://1.t.imgbox.com/NdXP3asA.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/NdXP3asA)
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Is that rpm reading correct at 520rpm?! Lambda reading is also very rich - which is understandable if it's struggling to run.
If so, make sure the car is up to temperature (engine is hot) and that it's at a raised idle speed (here in the UK CO reading should be done at a specific rpm - I forget which).
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The rpm reading is wrong, in service mod, with the idle screw closed it is at 1000-1100, and I can't get it lower.
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I would suspect air leak somewhere after the throttle. Worth checking!
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I didn't thouched the throttle body, it is exactly as in the g40 I didn't disassembled it. Could it be the problem that the injectors, the 250cc has 12 ohm resistance, and the green g60 injectors have 15.9? Could this lead to to much fuel, which leads to the high CO? If I put the 200cc injectors back, I get an idle betven 1500-2000 rpm or in other case an idle at start at 1500 rpm then it fluctuates betven 1500-500, then dies... I dont know what to do...
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You'd do well to fit Bosch EV1 style injectors, such as G60 'greens'.
I think there's another problem though - run through the Digifant diagnostic guide on here.
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Hello guys, it's been a long time that I didn't wrote here, so now I have some catching up to do. In the first place I fixed the injector problem, it was the resistence, now that I changed them to the G60 'green' ones it's better. A nother problem was the fuel filter, it was too small and the fuel line, I changed the the filter to one from a Golf 3 VR6, and repositioned the fuel line. But the engine still idles between 900-1200rpm, as he pleases. WHY???
I had some problem with the geabox, it was way too short, so I changed the internal parts to the internals of a diesel gearbox from a Polo 1.7 SDI, cod FFV. A nother problem is with the differential, every time when the turbo spooled up, dew to the sudden torque increase, one of the wheels lost the grip, and the dif was throwing the power from a wheel to a nother. Because I can't afford an new LSD, I changed the wheels from 165 55 R13 to something R15, and I compresd the two springs in the dif, I hope it will make at least a small difference. A nother piece of the transmission that didn't resist to the increased power is the cluch plate, so I orderd a kevlar one, finger crossed.
(http://7.t.imgbox.com/wA4Pvpr5.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/wA4Pvpr5) (http://3.t.imgbox.com/OkLvQinC.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/OkLvQinC) (http://1.t.imgbox.com/VYz4CXsM.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/VYz4CXsM) (http://4.t.imgbox.com/awwh7CnX.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/awwh7CnX) (http://0.t.imgbox.com/nxc5zAQk.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/nxc5zAQk) (http://0.t.imgbox.com/inVolaGE.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/inVolaGE) (http://6.t.imgbox.com/L6JDqxoR.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/L6JDqxoR)
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The rev haunting could be a couple thinks. Could be a leak after the throttle body, the idle screw being clogged, the airflow sensor being dirty or faulty or even the blue temperature sensor being faulty. From what I see in the pictures you have the air flow sensor at a funny angle and I see you used red vacuum hoses but I don't see if u plugged the one after the throttle body that you are not using.
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thx for the advice. I didn't found any leaks, the idle screw has been taken out and cleand, his place too, the airflow sensor is in the original position, and it was cleand, how can I make sure that its ok, I dont have a replacement? I plugged the vacuum line after the throttle body.
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The rev haunting can be caused by a defective lambda sensor? When I bought the car it had a 4 wire lambda sensor, that wasn't connected properly, so I bought a new universal 3 wire sensor. When I connected it to the original wire I used a soldering pistol (not soldering iron) some people say this way a destroyed the new sensor. That's true?
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Lambda sensor wouldn't cause rev haunting. The original G40 lambda has 3 wires on the exhaust side and 4 on the plug. It measures voltage so with the ironed cables it could have different readings but I wouldn't worry too much about it, mine was bad and it only increased the the fuel consumption. In the pick I posted with my previous post in the circle there is an an outlet is it connected to anything or is it unused! If nothing is connected to it you should plug it. Also the co-pot sensor in the picks is twisted around 45 degrees to clear the strut brace, this could cause a false reading, try removing the brace and correcting the angle and see if it makes any difference!
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GR40 I will try that when I put everything back together.
Until than my clutch is at modifying (kevlar and stiffening), it will resist to 200-220Nm.
What do you think what hp and Nm makes my engine? Whith this setup:250cc green injectors, K03 turbo, ABU (1.6) cam, boost switch, lightened flywheel (-800g), 1bar boost, PPP #G40008 map
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I can only take a wild guess about the hp, people have made anything from 160 to 190 hp with your setup. Plus I don't really know how aggressive the PPP map is on timing. I am guessing it is a relatively safe one so I would personally be more than pleased with around 170hp.
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hello, I`m back working on my car (I will post pictures later), and as usual I`m back with questions. Here is the first urgent one: I need to change the oil, I wasn`t happy with Catrol, so I`m putting Liqui Moly, but I don`t know which one to choose 10w40 or 10w60. What do you think it is more suitable for a turbo G40?