Club G40 Forum
Technical => Superchargers / G-Lader => Topic started by: RyanC on July 20, 2013, 10:41:15 pm
-
Basically I'm staying with a charger instead of a turbo I know putting a turbo on is a Easyer a quicker way of getting near 200 but what do you think the limit is for the g40?
My spec will be
Full blend charger with jabba induction kit
FMIC
PSD toothed pulleys
51mm TB
GT inlet
BVH
1341cc bottom end (wossner pistons and pec rods)
Lighten and balanced fly
Aftermarket cam
G60 injectors
Shorter and coned valve guides
Windage tray
PPP full exhast system
Probs missed a few little bit
They are the things I'm doing that I think increase power I have stuff like oil cooler and a LSD and other bits a bobs but they not really to gain power.
I was looking at aquamist but I don't think I'm gonna go down the route
I think with that spec I could get 185-190 or maybe a bit more depending on the map?
What do u think? Could I get more out of a g40 charger, I could go with a g60 charger but would like to see what the limit is on a g40 first.
One day I will most Likely go turbo ha
-
I wouldn't say putting a turbo on is easier, a G60 charger is probably an easier option but you will certainly be close to 200 with either.
I have everything you have mentioned except bigger valves, mapped by ppp and im (at a guess) between 170-180 max running 12psi. Happy with the power as any more would be too much for the road.
You might see 185 with bigger valves but i think you would struggle, considering turbo guys make 190+ and they run like 22psi.
If you run a small pulley like, 62/60mm you will probably see over 185 but then you will be servicing your charger more. If you got a G45 charger i think you would be closer to 190. But then you might as well get a G75 charger and be over 200 ;D
At the last rolling road day one turbo motor made 195, and another was 205 iirc. 10bhp between them, as far as im aware, the only difference was the 205 motor had a bvh and aquamist obviously every engine is different though. Would of been good to know what power it would make with the aquamist switched off then you could see the difference in power gain with bigger valves.
Plus if your thinking of aquamist, you might as well run nitrous and gain some good power as aquamist wont really gain much power. They are about the same price to buy but aquamist needs to be mapped and nitrous is better, more power and more fun! And if you map your car without aquamist, then want to run it, you need to remap it again. Of if you have it mapped with aquamist then run out of methanol you cant drive on boost or if you decide you dont want aqaumist anymore you need it mapped again.
-
Nice one thanks for that :) yh I think I will end up turboing it one day but for now I want to see what the g40 can do :) I'm future proof anyway with the bottom end that I will be running ;)
-
Just to save some money, i wouldnt bother buying pec rods if there is nothing wrong with your current ones.
-
Just to save some money, i wouldnt bother buying pec rods if there is nothing wrong with your current ones.
thats what yoof said.... Didnt end well :P
-
To late got the pistons and rod cheap tho work so I just got them both plus as Taylor said look what happened to yoofs! And one day I might go down the garrett route! So might as well get them now so I don't have to take it apart again!
-
Before I ran the turbo set up I was running the following:
Full blend charger
Toothies
1341cc
High compression ratio with metal head gasket
GT inlet
51mm throttle body
FMIC
Aquamist
250cc injectors
Full PPP system inc 4 branch
It produced 166bhp and would gain about an extra 10bhp with a custom map - never got that done in the end as I went to turbo.
http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=945.60
Rolling road graph on page 5.
-
Just to save some money, i wouldnt bother buying pec rods if there is nothing wrong with your current ones.
thats what yoof said.... Didnt end well :P
he is running a lot of power though, plus i said the same and my engine is fine. They take a lot to damage them. Trust me i have been through 2 engines. My melted piston was proper melted and it had slightly melted the con rod. The engine where the valve went through the piston didnt even touch the con rod. There pretty good con rods for standard parts.
If your looking to go turbo Ryan then it makes sense.
-
So with the Bvh and a good remap I should get around 180 then maybe a bit more if I find some extra things to put on ;)
-
Yh this is what I mean because it gonna be used on track most of the time then I will end up going turbo so I don't want to have to rebuild it again plus I got the cheap with the pistons so it was a no brainer really
-
G60 charger with a larger pulley - nice and different and will still see circa 200bhp on a 68mm pulley
-
Please don't tempt me! Ha
-
Hmmm, mine is pretty much the same spec as yours ryan apart from BVH. though i dont want to go turbo. And you say a g60 would see 200bhp yoof? A 68mm pulley would put less strain on the charger too compared too 65mm on my g40
hmm interesting, its not too hard to fit a g60 either
thanks for that :) will probably go g60 in the future, sorry to hijack
reckon you should go g60 ryan
-
Yh I'm looking into it now just run standard pulley so u don't service it every 2 miles lol should still get 200 all u need is the charger,mounting plate for tensioner, pulley, remap
can't be a lot else.
I dunno if it will fit without cutting the slam panel tho? And would u need a bigger map sensor?
-
Yeah you need a bigger map sensor and you also need an outlet for the the charger. I had a g60 charger and outlet then scrapped the idea as the charger will just kill the gearbox.
I had a 120 degree one i think, thats what you really need but there expensive.
By the time you have brought a charger (serviced or unserviced, ported or un-ported), air inlet adapter, charger bracket, pulleys, outlet, some custom pipework, map sensor, possibly 310cc injectors, it wont be far off going turbo. My charger i got was quite cheap but it needed porting and servicing. Thats easily £400 on them 2 bits so its best to get a charger thats been recently serviced and ported. Most of the time i see then go on ebay for £500+.
Just get a G60/G65 or G75 charger 8)
this is what djtez has roughly priced up on going g60 but not everything is on the list
£380 G60 supercharger stage 4 (rebuilt by g-werks)
£435 Jabbasport rebuild (spoke to Brian but no idea about the high rpms)
£71 G60 bracket to fit G40 engine (tensioner)
£29 Toothed Belt to fit
£46 Toothed pulley to fit G60 (70mm?)
£66 G60 race inlet 90mm
£49 G60 Rs outlet
Engine Parts
£550 Wossner Piston 77mm
£150 Engine Rebore of 2mm
£120 crank regrind (if required)
Fueling
£95 Bosch 315cc, 14.5ohm (reconditioned)
£60 Sytec FSE In-line Fuel pump (otp017)
Managment
£33 250kpa 1.5 bar limit MAP sensor
£??? When i find someone to give me a map!
Extras.!
£70 Universal Front mount
£100 Intercooler piping
£??? Labour on Agra Engineering rebuilt bottom end.(£45/hr)
There is a polo G60 on a german forum that is claiming to have 241bhp running 65mm pulley and 1.6bar of boost.
-
Yh was thinking bigger injector tbo if running over 200 what do u mean by the outlet?
Can u just use standard one?
It can kill the box any more than a turbo surly apart from boosting faster so more stress at lower revs?
-
The charger gives instant boost where as the turbo is a better delivery of boost.
I tried to see if an outlet from a g40 would fit, it does but you need to modify it slightly and the angle isnt the best, you will need one like this ideally:
8th item down the page G60 outlet 165 degree
http://www.rp-motorsport.de/en/g-lader/g60-tuning.htm
-
where as the turbo is a better delivery of boost.
Charger definately has a better delivery than a turbo in my opinion.
Anyway, here are my thoughts, years ago on a stock car with stock cam, cat, exhaust, inlet etc, just a 65mm pulley and a chip pulley I remember pulling 150hp....
Now, no offence here Robin, even if it would have pulled the 10 more later on with just a map, something must of been up for you to pull 166 with this spec...
"1341cc
High compression ratio with metal head gasket
GT inlet
51mm throttle body
FMIC
Aquamist
250cc injectors
Full PPP system inc 4 branch "
Lack of BVH/Cam + large bore manifold? I don't know... But it is a bit harsh on that mateys for sale ad to tell him it'll only pull 140, he should get more than that, even if 180 is a bold claim.
Does anyone remember Jabbasports G40? Wasn't that 180hp? I can't remember the full spec, but it definately didn't have a large bore manifold, High comp 1341, FMIC, and Aquamist...
Personally the jabba car always said to me there wasn't much wrong with the stock intercooler and manifold/downpipe. This tallied up with the various G40's I've built and other people's I've driven. The car's I remember having more fun in had modified stock downpipes and smaller bore exhausts than 63mm. That's rated for 220-250hp?
Vaguely remember someone taking a high spec g40 to 8krpm and getting 200hp?
G40 with G60 lader making 221 years ago?
Anyway, just food for though for all you with G40 laders chasing HP, be interested to see some more RR graphs with full specs......
-
Jabba's car had a charge cooler, not just the standard IC.
Extra CR and capacity from 1341cc don't appear to do a lot for outright power, but the CR increase does help power off-boost significantly.
Most power I've seen a G40-ladered car make was Barney's black G40 (for sale on here...) which hit 195bhp or so at Aldon, but it was at quite high rpm (7300rpm ish if my memory serves!) so not exactly oil seal friendly if you used it. Those PSD '1341' camshafts were filthy durations, so really opened up the top-end.
My own car ended up the same spec as Barney's, and was bloody quick on the road - but using that peak power all the time meant that lader oil seals didn't stay put, being as they were regularly taken far beyond their rated rpm limits. And herein lies the problem with chasing big power with a G-lader.
Alternative is to look at the G60 chargers, but those that ran 65mm pulleys never kept chargers or gearboxes together long (thinking Stu Baxter's 220bhp Mr Plow car, Renegade Rob's Anger Car). Duncan always stuck to a 68mm pulley on his '60 so that it all held together. Ironically our 1/4 mile times were consistently within tens of milliseconds of each other - him with a 68mm pulley and G60, and me with a K03 on 15psi of boost about 7 years ago when we were both down the Pod a lot. Both running normal tyres and open diffs back then too.
Always worth remembering that dyno figures are largely meaningless for comparison, unless done on the same dyno following the same methods. We've all seen comedy results over the years, Michelle's 65mm pulley'd G40 doing 175bhp at Stealth (15" rims and dyno operator not re-setting dyno co-efficient inbetween runs) or Duck's Eaton making 230bhp when similar spec'd cars were struggling to do more than 190bhp elsewhere are just two that spring to mind.
This is why quarter mile terminal speeds are often a better comparison between cars - ETs are too traction dependant so not much use, but terminals are usually the same regardless of rampant wheelspin or not.
-
Im confused, robins dyno did seem rather puny for the mods 166bhp when rs tuning are saying a 65mm pulley free flow filter and chip will see 150. But then the dyno doesnt lie
im worried about dynoing mine, as i think it will be far less than expected,
i like the idea of a g60, think retaining the glader is cool :) and boost would be much lower. People have seen 20psi out of a g60 on a g60 so may be more on a g40 1.3? Less flow more pressure?
-
Ignore my post andy answered it
-
Andy you say the psd 1341 camshafts have filthy durations, thats the came i have, think it would cause a rough idle? Do you recommend another cam instead of it?
Sorry to go off topic
-
They work, but in my experience they shift the power up the rpm more than the more 'normal' G40 cams offered by Schrick and Piper for example.
It's worth checking which one you have, as there were numerous different types of cam that PSD tried. Mine had a lot of overlap as well as being fairly fruity in duration, but used to idle nicely once remapped and properly setup.
I'm a fan of the Schrick G40 cams, they won't make as much outright power as a PSD one I don't think - by the virtue of not shifting the torque up the rev range - but they are a decent all rounder IMO.
-
Cam like the rest of the mods, much depends on the rest of the spec. Shricks g40 would be fine for most, and that was 252/276 or around that without looking it up. I've had newman do a few over the years.
If 150hp for chip, 65mm pulley and derestricted airbox is an agreed benchmark.
What else was did Jabbas car have to get the 180? Chargecooler, bvh, ported charger, and a map couldn't of been the only things that made 30hp?
-
They work, but in my experience they shift the power up the rpm more than the more 'normal' G40 cams offered by Schrick and Piper for example.
It's worth checking which one you have, as there were numerous different types of cam that PSD tried. Mine had a lot of overlap as well as being fairly fruity in duration, but used to idle nicely once remapped and properly setup.
I'm a fan of the Schrick G40 cams, they won't make as much outright power as a PSD one I don't think - by the virtue of not shifting the torque up the rev range - but they are a decent all rounder IMO.
thanks mate, maybe ill stick to it, like you say, will behave much better once its remapped and set up properly. Im getting a vernier for mine too, so might help the situation.
ive got to change the cam seals soon so the cam is coming off, there arnt any duration markings on it, is there any way to measure or an equation to work out my durations? Cheers :)
-
Been looking into g60s and as andy said they seem to eat the box and chargers don't really last long! I think ill stay with the g40 tbo and just mess around with that and see what I can get out of it. I will be using it on the road a lot so something around 180 is plenty for the road IMO. but I will be putting it round the track a lot too. I will see how it goes I think. There are always things that u can do to get that extra bit if power, if you say someone has had 195 out of a g40 at top end then it can be done with the right cam and remap.
I think I can get 180 maybe a tad more might as well set a goal!
-
When rich on anglsey owned the jabba car, seem to remember it got to 190 bhp on the 1272. Mine was 176 bhp at aldon on my 1473 cc when I ran it on a generic psd map, stock intercooler, stock rear exhaust. Got it to 189 bhp at (8 psi @ 6000 rpm) chipwizards with custom map and ppp exhaust system. Just need 20 psi boost now for an animal lol
-
just to note, i never did build my G60 conversion.
80% of the parts if not more are all lying there in the garage along with car etc and charger including all the brackets and fully rebuilt engine.
just .... never built it :-|
someone willing to travel up and finish it for me ?
although i still need to sort out some arrangement for a base map, and also buy a MAP sensor.. id say im pretty much ready to build and go.
-
Most power I've seen a G40-ladered car make was Barney's black G40 (for sale on here...) which hit 195bhp or so at Aldon, but it was at quite high rpm (7300rpm ish if my memory serves!) so not exactly oil seal friendly if you used it. Those PSD '1341' camshafts were filthy durations, so really opened up the top-end.
i think barneys made that power at stealth... as when we did a g40 rr day at aldon, barney's car made in the 170s IIRC
-
I've got an Aldon graph of Barney's hitting 185bhp too somewhere. Alan's 1341cc made similar numbers at Aldon too. Didn't think Barney came to that Stealth day that Karlos organised back in the day?
-
I've got an Aldon graph of Barney's hitting 185bhp too somewhere. Alan's 1341cc made similar numbers at Aldon too. Didn't think Barney came to that Stealth day that Karlos organised back in the day?
Name: Barney Smith
Reg: J8
Modifications: G40 1341
Estimated Power: n/a
Actual Power (BHP): 194@7699
Actual Torque: 159@4241
Operator Comments: Low down pinking . however very good power
Owners Comments: Ditto
-
I do know barneys was the one of the first 1341's and had lots of development time put into it. The results show this.
-
I stand corrected! ;D
The plot I've got of Barney's car is 181bhp at Aldon - just checked, it's a bit wiggly though so I assume it might've been pre-mapping etc.
Note the high rpm at which it makes the power, I think this is why the over-square 1341cc cars seem to just pip the 1473cc motors in the power stakes; as they're willing to rev.
-
I cant remember if stealth was after or before aldon but I remember the power was linear to the red line. I was very surprised to see rev so high. Those sort of revs usually warrants solid lifters
Even if the stealth rollers are dyno day figure happy it was really good to compare all the cars on the day .
I firmly believe the 1473cc hasn't been fully exploited... yet
The 1341's took time to start making the numbers and the 1473cc are in the same phase.... They are easily 250- 300hp engines
For example PUTO_T40 is using larger CC's (1391cc block by his words) and passing @124mph ... this is not your usual 220hp car.
-
I belive the 1473cc's really need bigger valves, both exhaust and inlet. Thats why I'm going 38/33, but 37/32 might be more reliable.
On the 1473's, I think you also are on the edge of what the 3F manifold can do well.
I'm fairly sure my 1473 will sport a different plenum ;)
-
I belive the 1473cc's really need bigger valves, both exhaust and inlet. Thats why I'm going 38/33, but 37/32 might be more reliable.
On the 1473's, I think you also are on the edge of what the 3F manifold can do well.
I'm fairly sure my 1473 will sport a different plenum ;)
are you going turbo? this will be rather interesting :) should start a thread on it
like people say, just dont think there is enough research into the 1473cc i bet there was a shed load of trial and error in the 1341 when people first started doing it
1341 is probably the limit on other things as you say valve size, inlet mani size etc
-
The thing is putting bigger valves in both inlet and exhaust means ur making the gap very small between the valves makeing it a lot Easyer for the head to crack!
I have seen on German eBay some "rs" inlet manifolds that have been made from scratch and are a lot bigger than gt inlet but they cost a bomb and they never pop up.
-
The right cam is going to be a big factor on the 1473 to unlock the power. I remember curries old motor, sister engine to mine bar the cam, made a lot less power than my schrick'd one.
-
I belive the 1473cc's really need bigger valves, both exhaust and inlet. Thats why I'm going 38/33, but 37/32 might be more reliable.
On the 1473's, I think you also are on the edge of what the 3F manifold can do well.
I'm fairly sure my 1473 will sport a different plenum ;)
are you going turbo? this will be rather interesting :) should start a thread on it
like people say, just dont think there is enough research into the 1473cc i bet there was a shed load of trial and error in the 1341 when people first started doing it
1341 is probably the limit on other things as you say valve size, inlet mani size etc
The basic spec is as following
1W block
JE 77mm 8,5:1 cr
Knobloch Sport 38/33 BVH (I think I have posted some pics here)
Rothe exhaust manifold
PSD Intercooler
PSD downpipe
For starters I will use a GT cam, K03 turbo and 3F manifold and early PSD 49.5 mm TB
When I have mapped it ok, I will change to either a K04-15 or a Frankenturbo type turbo and try to have plenum made up with sufficiently large volume. The cam will certainly be better than the one I have now, but I think I can get away with at least the same duration and a bit more lift. The mildest lobe on some of the PSD cams are 276 degrees ;)
For the 38/33 mm valve combo to work, you need need offset valve guides. I also belive the bigger bore helps the head "live", more surfarce are for the heat to "cling" to, for the lack of better technical words ::)
-
Ahh I see, seems like you got it all worked out :) will be interesting to see what it will produce!
-
Got any pics of the head mate? I had a quick look but can't find any
-
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/derby2f/topp/topp3833008.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derby2f/media/topp/topp3833008.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/derby2f/topp/topp3833020.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derby2f/media/topp/topp3833020.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/derby2f/topp/topp3833015.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derby2f/media/topp/topp3833015.jpg.html)
-
That's awesome man! How do u offset the guides? I can't get my head round how it would be done!
-
(http://www.mcssl.com/content/177453/bronzeguides.jpg)
-
That is crazy!! Bet it all cost a pretty penny!
SBVH super big valve head :P
-
That's cool man so how do the springs fit coz they are close to the cam carriers as it is! Do you have do grind them away abit? I'm guessing all the spring seats have to be moved?
-
Seem to fit fine
Haven't found any evidence of grinding
Yes the valve seats have to be moved
-
This is an interesting read and one that raises the question I always had when running my old g40. I never touched the bottom end on mine infact it was running standard injectors and ignition etc etc. thi all my mods where based on Getting more air into the engine and that was it. The head work done was genius in my opinion, on the road gave more gains than any charger flowing did (I know it all added up). I think I ended on 175bhp which for not changing the bottom end was great.
I agree with Andy, it's all about how these cars react on the road so a 1/4 mile will always be a good test etc. I think now I'm in the market for a g40 again I'll aim for around what I had years ago but nothing more as that power was always more than enough really.
-
Mine has 65mm pulley on a standard charger, gt inlet standard exhaust with cat PPP map (guessing generic) and paper filter in standard air box with front cut away. And it surprises me how nippy it is. Had a play with mates cars on way to meets and such and it's quite a bit quicker than a standard corsa vxr, new shape s3 (to 100) and can sit on the boot lid of a mk2 focus RS with flame spitting exhausts.
I'm guessing with my spec it's gunna be around 130bhp, would love to experience 170bhp on a G lader.. Must be mental.
-
Awesome!!!
-
From memory Tris your map is tweaked rather than just a generic one.
-
Need to get mine mapped properly!! Will make a huge difference!!
-
Ah right cheers andy, power delivery is very smooth. And seeing 14psi rising to 15psi @6k where I change gear.
-
I'm glad I answered the question ended up being quite interesting can wait to get it done now sticking with the g40 charger defiantly now so once the respray is done full speed ahead to get it done. I need somthing to put a smile in my face at the weekend after a weeks work ha
-
Personally I think anything over 160-170 BHP the money would be better spent on suspension and an LSD as grip becomes a huge issue, fun as hell and gets the giggles but your wallet will not thank you with the price of tyres.
My standard G40 I have at the minute is still good fun because of it's drivability and it will see a Fiesta ST off fairly easily, they also feel so much quicker than many cars of the greater BHP output due to the power delivery and torque.
Great engines :-)
-
Ah right cheers andy, power delivery is very smooth. And seeing 14psi rising to 15psi @6k where I change gear.
Are u sure that charger is not ported? because i m getting only 10 psi out of my stock one with 68mm (with recent rebuild)
-
Not ported, had it in half to change seals
-
If might be seeing different pressure due to a number of things though, boost leak, manifold mods, throttle body mod etc. I see 12psi with a 65mm but im 1341cc and inlet mods.
-
(http://www.mcssl.com/content/177453/bronzeguides.jpg)
What material is this?
-
If might be seeing different pressure due to a number of things though, boost leak, manifold mods, throttle body mod etc. I see 12psi with a 65mm but im 1341cc and inlet mods.
yeah but i have not done those mods yet :/ a boost leak should be noticable no? in power as well as exterior on the car?
Always heard that 0.7-0.8bar (10-12PSI) would be the max on stock G40. and porting +0.2bar (3PSI)
if not, maybe my charger is not really in great shape? it had some damage on the displacer but was fixed...
-
Tristan's car is running a smaller pulley than yours, so that's another few psi difference. I'd not worry too much - you might not have the boost gauge plumbed in to the same point as him, and I'm guessing that the boost gauges you're both using are not fully calibrated instrumentation grade bits of kit so some variance there is to be expected.
-
only used a gauge when rebuild was done to see that rebuild was ok, my gauge red about 0.65 bar ~10PSI at 5500rpm
Was pretty funny driving with a tube from hood trough passenger window. not an ideal setup probably ;D