Hi again, mike here Dirrts fella.
Having recently fitted a new short block with Dirrts old R1 charger, inlet/ecu etc etc, I now have a couple of issues. Maybe due to me being new to polos.
First off, it started fine several times but now the starter has stopped working. The solenoid clicks, but nothing else. Tried whacking it with an extension bar, tried rockig it in gear with the key in the start position and in the normal position (no ignition on etc). Bump starts fine, but the starter just clicks with the solenoid. The battery is FRESHly charged and started the car fine several times when I first got the engine together. The main 12v supply has got power, and I assume the switchable red plug has power as the starter solenoid clicks. Starter dead? Anything else?
Then we've got a rattle, a bad rattle but sounds like quite a consistent/solid noise. Not bottom end I don't think, as it is constant, not dependant on throttle position etc. The cam was fitted by myself and is a piper high lift jobby but I torqued it up correcty and primed the journals with oil etc. There was no glitter in the sump or in the oil remnants so I assume the engine was good previously, and it was sold to us as "good".
Final problem, I believe to be ignition timing. I've leftthe dizzy cap so it's semi-loose, allowing me to tweak it to get it about right. But I can't seem to get the balance between a responsive throttle, and a car that returns to idle @ 800-1100rpm. It either revs reasonably but stays at 2k rpm idle, or it's very sluggish to rev but with a reasonable return to idle. Is this possibly because I've dewedged the throttle butterfly? If so I haven't read about these side effects... Or is it just my newbieness to adjusting ignition timing.
Any help on any topic would be much appreciated! I'm semi-clueless now.... Haha.
Cheers.
Mike
Both the last two problems could be related to cam timing. Have you got the specs from piper to set the vernier to? Is it definitely timed right?
First one, can't think of anything other than a duff starter really.
I've got exactly the same problem as you with the starter! Had 2 on it now and all I get is the solenoid clicking but the engine refuses to turn over. Anyway to test a starter when it's out the car??
Cheers for the reply. My biggest concern was cam timing but it seems perfect. Dot on the cam sprocket lines up with the arrow shaped plastic on the timing belt cover, and the "0" on the bottom pulley lines up with the metal sharp arrow bracket thing at the bottom
At maximum it's half a tooth retarded, which i didnt even think could be a problem until i think about it now. But anyway there is no vernier pulley, I fitted the cam from the old engine and the standard cam pulley was bolted onto it on that engine. Unless they artificially advanced or retarded the timing by a tooth to counteract the lack of vernier.
To be honest the way it revs slowly does make me suspect retarded timing, maybe I could skip it forward a tooth to see if it helps. Strange that you say the knocking might be cam timing, but the knock does sound cam related. Is there anything that could have happened to the lifters? They aren't cocked in the bores or anything and I'm sure they must be free to rotate? Or could they be rotated 90deg or something and make themselves sit funny?
Would a starter just die like that? Any way I can test it on the bench?
Cheers!
you can test a starter on the bench but make sure its held down with something cos itll kick up a fuss!
knocking/tapping could be an inlet or exhaust leak, timing is set in service mode (engine up to temp, unplug blue temp sender, rev car to 3k 3 times, revs should drop a bit, set timing to 6 BTDC, plug sender back in, then switch engine off or go for a blat, make sure its connected before turning the car on)
you may need to reset any fault codes on the ecu with a vagcom (karl has one) in case its in a spaz mode!
you have a quick pm too
Well I once put my g40 engine together with the timing a tooth out ( forget whether it was advanced or retarded) and it made a nocking sound. Obviously thought the worst but on inspection it did no damage and was fine when corrected.
I would also try to get the timing specs of the particular cam from piper and fit a vernier.
Cheers saf but ive got no strobe so would need to get it somewhere near before getting it dine properly at a garage.
The knocking is a LOT worse than an inlet or exhaust leak. There was an exhaust leak to start with but I've sorted that now. Was the downpipe>manifold joint.
What do I connect to the starter to test it saf? Get it in the vice, earth the body of the starter motor, +ve on the big stud terminal, then switchable starter +ve onto the spade terminal that sits on the side of the starter closest to the engine block.
Hayesy thanks for the experience on the knocking, definately worth a shot! I've played with ignition timing before and it's never normally as difficult as this was today.
karl and yeti have a timing light if that helps :) you should get laura to give him a shout.
not sure on the exact things for the starter but a positive feed, earthed body and a signal to the started feed wire should spin it.
i normally just test them on a car!
get a vid up if you can, as we'll have a listen, btw you can get a strobey from halfords or ebay for about 20 quid, i got one and its done the job, before that i just used to spin the dizzy about till it was happy, that was all good on my mk1 gti, but digifant is a bit more picky!
I might be able to borrow a timing light if its that important and easy. I'll get a video next time I go down there but will try tweaking the cam one tooth too and get a before/after video.
Thanks for the procedure for the ignition timing, hopefully I can sort it. God knows how you can get your hands onto the starter to test it, I'm not looking forward to removing it, I fitted it before the inlet manifold, which was sooo much easier.
It's notbtoo bad to get to from underneath
Quote from: hayesey on February 28, 2011, 09:05:13 PM
It's notbtoo bad to get to from underneath
x2. Plus you don't knacker your back leaning over the the back and bottom of the engine.
I know it's just a bake after only just fitting the damn thing! And I don't have a spare to try on it either. Thanks for the advice though. I'm going to try and test the starter and advance the CSM timing one tooth to see how it goes. Then get the ignition timing somewhere near before sortin it with a strobe if I can. I hope to god it fixes itself as I wanted to hang myself earlier.
Quote from: Dirrt on February 28, 2011, 09:03:36 PM
God knows how you can get your hands onto the starter to test it, I'm not looking forward to removing it, I fitted it before the inlet manifold, which was sooo much easier.
ive got midget arms man! deffo need a strobe light to set the timing, if the base setting is wrong the ecu wont be able to adjust it accordingly on the fly
Well I'm going to tweak the cam timing one tooth forward tonight then we're towing the old girl home so I can work on it easier. Then just to replace the starter if the old one is duff. Then MOT. Then we're sorted.
The more I think about it, the more I think it could be cam timing. If it's retarded then the inlet valve will still be open as the piston is on the compression stroke, and the piston will already have generated positive cylinder pressure by travelling up the bore before the exhaust valve even opens. Potentially. So I have high hopes for that one cambelt tooth of movement haha. Fingers crossed.
I have a timing gun with adjustable strobe on it if you want to borrow it? I live by Pershore, so not too far away from you guys?
Yeah... When I lived in Malvern. I've moved to Castle Donington :D
Thank you very much for your generosity though!
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/originalMJG/2010%20shizzle/87e63e78.jpg)
Here is my illustration of the timing marks on the engine.
The new starter now works, and I've had some more experiments.
With the timing advance one tooth from "A" (my first setting) it wouldn't start even bumping it, but was noisy. Today I fitted a new starter motor and the car didn't start but I think I heard valves hitting pistons... I stopped cranking it and turned it over by hand but it only spun 90deg before stopping... Presumably valve on piston.
So I removed the cambelt again, put the crank to TDC, then tried turning the cam by hand. Turning it clockwise, the timing mark on the cam got in line with the plastic timing mark on the cambelt cover then dink... It hits the piston or something. So I retarded the cam one tooth before where it was initially. Now it doesn't start but turns over freely. It starts coughing when I push the throttle but sounds like it's just popping in the exhaust manifold so I now fear I've bent the damn valves!! GRRRRR!!
So could anybody tell me where I've gone wrong with the timing marks? Or clarify why this piper cam doesn't use proper timing marks or something?
http://www.clubpolo.co.uk/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t167262.html
FFS. Why does nobody tell me I need a dial gauge and a timing disc and shizz? Darnit. I've never dealt with an aftermarket cam before so I can't even blame someone else. Anybody got any experience of this anyway?
think you hit the nail on the head.
Actually when i emailed piper about cam specs they were very helpful!
Thanks Pete. But what's best for me to do now? I don't have a DTI handy or an angle gauge! So even if I had the cam specs they wouldn't be much use. I think I might just fit the standard camshaft and if it doesn't run I know the valves are shafted.
If so then I'll have to get the old big valve head cleaned up and reinstalled. Urgh.
i would personally use a normal cam till piper tell you the specs and how to time it up etc...
or wait and get a vernier and play about
Cheers. That's what I think too. Get a known benchmark!
Weve got the receipt from jabba for fitting the big valve head and piper cam in 2003. Since piper only list one cam for the G40 I assume it's this one...
http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/product.php?pid=G40BP270H
So I've got my cam timing and could google how to time it up and what equipment I need, but I think fitting the standard cam would at least get us running and hopefully prove if the head is ok or not.
Working on cars that were modified/built by previous owners sucks.
you can check which one it is as they are stamped on the end
pete
Bonus. Thanks. I'll get back to you with how we get on.