hi people, ive heard alot bout subframes for the g40 but where can u get then from, and wots the best 1 to get? do u need todo any mods to the g to get it to fit? wot difference does it make to the g? ;D
The full subframe with wishbone conversion is the one to go for. They fit to the cars existing suspension mounting points, so shouldn't be any need to modify anything.
The subframe ties in the suspension pick up points and stiffens the front end of the bodyshell up considerably. The conversion does away with the standard anti roll bar which was supposed to control castor (which it doesn't do very well at all) and obviously roll. In place of it tension struts are used which are connected to the subframe via adjustable ball joints and then into the TCA's where the old anti roll bar went. These allow for castor adjustment and virtually illiminate the castor geometry issues you get with the standard setup.
You have two options of where to buy, both are very good. Yoof (Pete) on here runs PPP and has been selling them for a while, contact him for details.
Alternatively you can get one from PPS. The guy that runs it is over on the Polo3 site (his forum name is volksnorm).
Hope this helps,
Richard.
thanks thats great,ill be looking to get one soon, i understand it now. ;D
is their any reason anyone can think of why the ppp frame is better than the pps frame?? im looking to buy one but their is quite a big difference in price between the 2 and im just wondering why? is the ppp frame better quality? im confused
steven
Quote from: poloeatonm45 on January 28, 2009, 08:51:42 PM
is their any reason anyone can think of why the ppp frame is better than the pps frame?? im looking to buy one but their is quite a big difference in price between the 2 and im just wondering why? is the ppp frame better quality? im confused
steven
Ive just bought a pps frame, it took a week from me ordering to it turning up on my doorstep. Quality wise i haven't fitted it yet but it looks great and really well made, all good welds and its got a really good powdercoated finish aswell :)
Quote from: poloeatonm45 on January 28, 2009, 08:51:42 PM
is their any reason anyone can think of why the ppp frame is better than the pps frame?? im looking to buy one but their is quite a big difference in price between the 2 and im just wondering why? is the ppp frame better quality? im confused
steven
The PPP frame is a slightly different design which costs more to make. The PPP frames were developed on a few cars before being sold on the open market, and are based on a design which was used successfully in a G40 racer for 3 seasons.
The other difference is that the rear beam of the subframe which goes over the exhaust is held onto the main frame by rose joints on the PPS one and on the PPP one its welded which is much much stiffer for the latter version for obvious reasons.
Quote from: Robin on January 28, 2009, 09:36:06 PM
The other difference is that the rear beam of the subframe which goes over the exhaust is held onto the main frame by rose joints on the PPS one and on the PPP one its welded which is much much stiffer for the latter version for obvious reasons.
The back arm on the pps subframe hasn't got rose joints at either end, but it is detachable and adjustable :)
Every few months this comes up for debate, the only things I'll say are:
1) Ours are more expensive as they've been properly developed on OUR cars, not customers. We've taken the frames to the limits which most will not, we've done this at our expense. No one else has run the stickiest tyres, and a 225bhp motor to try and break one, no one else has done 3 season in a G40 Cup Car, we've engineered and designed this product to last, we're not cashing in on a passing phase. Out of 30+ frames we've now sold one has come back to have the holes re-positioned due to the car having a new front end.
2) We pay a professional to make our frames, I'm a competent welder with basic certification to prove, but I'd rather a coded welder make safety critical parts for my car, and of course my customers/friends cars. With the relevant years of experience necessary to do a precision task- I could pay a monkey to do this job, and flog frames for £249 etc, but I'm not into making masses of cash from this, it's a hobby really.
Any questions please ask, I've yet to find someone who isn't satisfied with their subframe/wishbone conversion from us :)
I have the PPP frame fitted to my car and I have had a PPS on in my hand to compare.
The PPP one was made from more hardcore materials but I think PPS now do a CDS one for a little more.
The subframe is the best thing I have ever bought for my G40 and would recommend it to everybody. If I was to do it all again I would go for the PPS one purely because it means the gearbox can come out without taking the subframe off.
Saying that I have yet to see the PPS frame in action so might not want to runt he risk of down-grading.
i have a ppp one other than the amount of time waiting for it to come it all looks good.
bear in mind that it's not going to be as rigid if it's bolted together than seam welded.
More than happy with my PPP frame, one of the best things I ever bought for the polo.
The one i got from pps was in cds and it was £360 delivered :)
Money was the reason for choosing the pps one, but i hope to really test it out once my car is up and running properly.
It would be good to hear from anyone that has fitted and have been using the pps frame :)
Quote from: juan on January 29, 2009, 07:44:22 PM
It would be good to hear from anyone that has fitted and have been using the pps frame :)
well thats the point. There is loads of hype but the only person who I know to run a pps one on a decent g is steve PSD
Fair enough, but how many of us are going to be running monster power on track? I got a frame to improve one of the G's biggest weaknesses; shit handling on the road. I reckon most people who buy a frame will have one for that reason. I got a PPS which was an easy fit but which I haven't really put to the test yet, but the quick burst I had with it was an eye opener. In truth this thread's beginning to sound like a couple of old giffers arguing Rolls Royce/Bentley. I really don't think that in a real life, on road test, anyone would be able to tell the differance.
Quote from: giorgio on January 29, 2009, 08:22:02 PM
Quote from: juan on January 29, 2009, 07:44:22 PM
It would be good to hear from anyone that has fitted and have been using the pps frame :)
well thats the point. There is loads of hype but the only person who I know to run a pps one on a decent g is steve PSD
I don't think Steve ever ran one, if he did it was only for a few weeks- not really enough time to test it at all.
I'd argue Rolls Royce/ Bentley, Rolls Royce are blatently better, Robin and I work for Bentley ;D
Quote from: scotsjohn on January 29, 2009, 09:48:27 PM
Fair enough, but how many of us are going to be running monster power on track? I got a frame to improve one of the G's biggest weaknesses; shit handling on the road. I reckon most people who buy a frame will have one for that reason. I got a PPS which was an easy fit but which I haven't really put to the test yet, but the quick burst I had with it was an eye opener. In truth this thread's beginning to sound like a couple of old giffers arguing Rolls Royce/Bentley. I really don't think that in a real life, on road test, anyone would be able to tell the differance.
Just remember that some of the guys recommending PPP is actually the guys behind PPP.
I know that the PPS frame is based on Steve's experience with John Marchant and my Salzmann wishbone kit. Had the opportunity to have a look at the PPS one next to my Salzmann when I picked mine up after E38 last year. And I can only say the PPS one looks very well made, and I doubt there 99,9% of you can't tell them apart handling wise
Frode, I'm not reccomending my product for financial gain- my profit margins are minimal and I don't rely on PPP products for any income whatsoever, I'm reccomending it because it's been properly tested and is used on the UKs quickest & most powerful G40s.
The PPS frame isn't based on any of Steve's experience (which is limited) He copied a Salzmann kit (which are a renound bad fit) and did no comprehensive testing at all- he has little understanding of chassis dynamics and generally learns from customers experiences, at their expense.
I can safely say all the components and frame itself we sell will stand up to drag radials, hard circuit abuse (with slicks), and over 10,000 road miles. No-one else I know in the UK has done such extensive testing- especially not on their own cars.
Handling wise you are correct, I would be surprised if anyone could tell the differance, but I can honestly say in 5 years a PPP frame will still be attached firmly to the underneath of your car, it would be fiction for anyone else in the UK to claim the same.
since we are on the subject - which subframe sits lower?
I know smashing it off the floor is not the point but I am glad its made of strong stuff or it may have found its way into the bin.
Final conclusion - PPS better design, PPP gets the build quality. And for me there is no substitute for quality when it comes to my G.
Why do they have a better design?!?
Would like the rear part removable.
Might just be a bent front end on my part but I find doing anything at the front end is a major pain with the subframe as its such a ballache to take it on/off
Making the subframe detachable at the rear loses vital strength, hence us not doing it.
I can get my frame on/off in under 30mins, there's not many jobs I need to do that for, even a gearbox swap I'd rather whip the whole lump out, but I suppose if you've not got an engine crane that might not be an option...
Yoof, have you seen the the Salzmann and PPS side-by-side like I have? If you had, you would know that the PPS is far from a copy of the Salzmann, it is not even close.
Steve had wishbones on his car for a while, and the PPS one incorporates a few revisions Steve recomended after testing it.
yea i agree on scotsjohn comment there..
i have full intension of owning a ppp subframe only coz they had excellent replies and were patient and had good answer to my questions..
if am payin extra money for just the fact that they seem to sell it better then so be it
but for me you always "get wat you pay for"
dont turn this into clubpolo for god sake next we'll be debating 'wats a safe strectch'
we all love the G's lets just keep it that way
Quote from: polo classic on February 02, 2009, 08:48:19 PM
Yoof, have you seen the the Salzmann and PPS side-by-side like I have? If you had, you would know that the PPS is far from a copy of the Salzmann, it is not even close.
Steve had wishbones on his car for a while, and the PPS one incorporates a few revisions Steve recomended after testing it.
Steve didn't have the frame on his car for any length of time at all- it's a shame he felt the need to lie to you, but then again he has to everyone else, the fact his car hasn't been registereed on the road for months, or had an engine in. I'd worry about Steve's reccomended revisions (which incorporated a blatent copy of our own rear gearbox mount) he is a con-artist and has minimal experience with chassis developments, let alone enough to base his 'revisions' on, he's never used it on track, accumulated enough miles on the road, or used the stickiest tyres- as such his revisions are fictional guesses, not based on test results and facts.
I have seen a PPS frame up close, as have I seen your exact Salzmann one, and over 30 of my own. The Salzmann ones where never a good fit, JBM would tell you that! Ours went straight on a 1980s Mk1 with no major problems at all.
I'll happily give anyone a demo in my car with our frame on it- I can't see anyone else doing that, especially not Steve being as he went bust. And PPS's site is down at the moment? I've nothing against volksnorm, infact he's a well sound guy, it's Steve Pitt's lies and dishonesty that appal me.
Has anyone got pictures of all three subframes? I think it would be good to get a pick of all three together on the same page
I think a visual representation would be a better starting point for discussion rather than bickering about what steve pitt did or didn't do.
I think so far ppp have proven their product and its ability, you can't argue with the facts and figures.
The experience ive had so far with volksnorm (stuart) has been good and the service excellent and although the pps frame has not been fitted yet everything looks great quality wise.
Yoof- Anymore specific technical details on how exaxctly the frames differ design wise?
I've got a rudementary FEA analysis somewhere of one of my frames, which I'm not 100% on as the integrity of welds is hard to simulate (as I'm sure you know) especially when it's done by hand, the consistency is never the same as an automated process.
Stuarts website had some decent photos on it, just looking through pics of ours and PPS ones carfully will highlight most different areas, more subtle ones such as strut pick-up points, TCA location slots/ tie in points might not be so obvious.
PMs replied to ;)
Just to add my 2pence in this.
I got a PPP frame, only the stage 1 version, was a bitch to fit as it was a good tight fit which is what you want for a subframe, wouldn't like to fit one again but certainly well worth the pain and hassle as it makes a good big of difference.
When buying stuff like this i always tend to go by other peoples opinions and experiences regarding the product in question and the feedback for the PPP subframe was enough for me to spend my wedge!
It's also worth noting that fitting subframes to a tuned g40 that has been driven hard all its life might not be that easy, the g40 chassie beeing so flimsy as it is. After almost 20 years of beeing twisted around, mounting points might not be 100% on the spot where the factory intended. That said a I think Ing. Salzmann must have used a chrashed Polo as pattern for his frames ::)
I f i remember rightly, Yoof was very happy to make the frames to your cars specific measurements if you thought you chasis had been battered around a bit.
Very true Frode.
We can make them to your requirements, we're currently modifying one for Nick as his mk2 has had all the front end panels replaced, so didn't match up with our jig car- which is a 1.0litre squareback with about 55k on it, about the mintest one we could find :)
Yeah is that ready for me yet Pete?
My mk2 only had a new OE front panel through choice btw, Gaz is yet to try his on his Wolfsberg mk2.....
hi guys, i'm the man behind PPS and i'd like to clear up a few points once and for all.
for my frames i use CDS, so do PPP the steel is exactly the same so no question about strength, i am a coded welder, so no question about weld integrity. the basic design differences are down to my personal opinions of how i like to do things and ease of fitting. the question of the rear crossbar is a bit pointless as this is the least stressed area on the whole set up.
the "ripped off" gearbox mount is basically the only way to approach whats needed so no ripping off was involved.
too much emphasis is being put onto the steve from PSD issue, out of the 20 odd frames i've sold only one was to Steve, he was not involed in the design or idea at any stage and i think it's very unfair to slag him off like that on a public forum just to make a point.
as for the price difference, the only reason i can see is that i make the frames myself, all in house inc blasting and powdercoating, PPP have theirs made for them, if YOOF has a normal job thats perfectly understandable as it is a huge undertaking to set up to make these frames.
if i were to charge £600 for one, would that make people think that mine are better quality?
don't even compare our frames to Salzmann ones , i have seen them and they are diabolical.
so to sum up, both frames will do the job perfectly, both will last, its purely down to individual choices and budgets.
i hope that puts a lid on the subject
thankyou
Have been following this closely as i am interested in a subframe for my g40, how much is your subframe kit volksnorm?
cheers grant.
Quotetoo much emphasis is being put onto the steve from PSD issue, out of the 20 odd frames i've sold only one was to Steve, he was not involed in the design or idea at any stage and i think it's very unfair to slag him off like that on a public forum just to make a point.
Hear Hear!
Quote from: GAF2 on February 20, 2009, 09:45:52 PM
Have been following this closely as i am interested in a subframe for my g40, how much is your subframe kit volksnorm?
cheers grant.
i dont want to use this forum for any sort of advertising, but you can get hold of me through polo3.co.uk
thanks mate