in 2 minds eaton or r1 jabbasport g ladder

[Yoof]

Hayesey- I have a copy of Wave, can hook you up if required.

Giorgio- not tried 4 stroke, Wave is an industry standard (although it's 50:50 split with GT Power) but of which are very similar.

If you've got hours and alot of data the results are very impressive, our V8 model at work is 99.99% accurate, advantage we have is 4 engine dynos to confirm theoretical changes on!

[giorgio]

99.99% I doth my hat.

After about 4 days of Delab, delex, DibDab, BlibBlop I just want to ram my face through the monitor. Really need to start usign wave mesh

Do you (or where you work) link your models to CATIA. I know there is a way to set the 2 progs up to run side by side so that your cad model will adjust and visa versa. But as you probably know Cov is a useless uni so I am teaching myself so its years away from ever happening.

[Yoof]

Yes- hence why it's so accurate, I didn't do the model at work (Robin's best man did...) but from what I can gather the smallest of details in flow paths can upset the calculations.

It is far easier with a full working V5 model and hundreds of pages of dyno data infront of you.

[Insight G40]

Gregg, aka LregG made 189 bhp and 160 lbft at Aldon 3 or 4 years ago with a 1272cc and an Eaton on an AWT kit. He was running toothies and a custom remap, can't remember if he'd ported the head by then, but the valves were def stock. Think that was with a stock G40 cam too.

I think the eaton has serious as yet untapped potential, but requires very precisely manufactured brackets (ie not the AWT kit) for it to work really well, and with modern boost controllers turboing is a much more viable option for most people wanting to get near to the 200bhp mark.
You'll cerainly spend a lot less on a turbo setup than you would on an Eaton setup.

i love the idea of a G60 on my car, and have one at home, or rather my girlfriend has, so I'm sure it will end up on something at some stage.

[Tommo]

though at 6k on full-boost my Emerald reckons on giving me 12deg of advance. Base timing is set at 66deg BTDC.

Thats where the power difference is then, its because I can run more advance that allows my car to make the power. I do run it on optimax though 

I should have lower EGT's as well then.

I know what you mean about the 'sweet spot', im so tempted to get my car some dyno time so I can find that on my car. The 18 degrees its on at the moment was just what I guessed was 'safe' when I first built the thing. But because its relatively fixed (save for vacuum advance) if I can advance it a bit more, or even advance it quite a bit more on lower boost for the same power, then I will gain on economy. Sat on the motorway at 80, barely on the throttle, with your timing at 18 degrees BTDC is no good for economy at all lol.

[Andy]

Bare in mind that mine's 9.3:1 compression on a stock head too - so that affects max advance. It's 12deg at 22psi, but I've not finished that map yet - made 175bhp at 16psi though, so should be 195bhp at 22psi give or take.

The Polo motors are very timing sensitive. At 7psi on a K03 I made only 100bhp with a rough guess map. Adding just 10deg of advance netted 33bhp on top of that.

Interestingly you hit det limit before MBT on my engine - and all high compression 1341cc motors from what I've seen. That's why when Dave Walker did my original base map at Emerald it pinked its arse off - he just used his dyno to map the ignition to MBT, and ignored his ears which'd be fine if he'd got some knock detection kit...

When I complained I got told to lower the CR or use octane booster - as though the engine was at fault. Strange that many OEMs will build high CR turbo motors that also hit det limit before MBT, it does limit your ability to make outright power - but you gain a nice off-boost driving characteristic.

[Tommo]

Im not familiar with the MBT acronym.

Im not surprised you got 30bhp from 10 degrees timing, thats a lot of advance. I think If I could get another 2 degrees it wouldnt be far off another 10bhp.

How do you monitor det when you are mapping? With the knock sensor? I dont really trust them if im honest, although modern ones may be a lot better. But a mates nissan runs all the goodies and it it seems to run with a little bit of det all the time. If you fit a set of det cans to it you can always hear a bit of det when its on full boost, just like dropping a few nails into a bucket.

Im guessing being a SAAB fan you will know of the awesome SAAB knock detection boost retarding awesomeness setup? A mate is slowly gathering together all the bits to fit this to his car.

[lance]

saab knock detection is amazing. it does it over the plugs doesnt it?
my mate has a 9000 2.3 turbo its its unreal how well it goes for a standard car with a billion miles on!

id love a 900 turbo. carlson is it?

[Andy]

MBT = max brake torque, the point at which any more ignition advance fails to gain you any more torque. So on my motor I hit det before the ignition timing is advanced to make maximum power.

For knock detection I like to use my ears, though we're about to invest in some knock detection kit that's pretty much electronic det cans - but with the ability to set up various filters so you're only listening to engine knock.

Saab Trionic monitors the plug ionisation current and compares it against a model to decide what's det. Means the motor can run right on the det limit - and the ECU is left to control fuel, boost and ignition timing with a fair amount of free reign. I have an amusing plot from my car from John Sleath's dyno, where the adaptive mapping has the hump because I've swapped from 95RON to 99RON - so it's trying to tweak itself back. Starts off with nice stable AFR and awesome torque (365lb/ft), then dips massively at 4k rpm as I'd hit boost and det limit there whilst ragging to John's - so it whacked lots of extra fuel into its corrections map at 4k along with more fuel and less ignition - then stabilises again at higher rpm. 20 miles or so more driving and it'd sorted itself out. Just ticked over to 199k and the motor's still going strong.

[Tommo]

Cool, I love saab's, not because they are pretty, or fast or whatever. I just appreciate them from an engineering point of view. Im sure the saab kit my mate has uses crystal knock sensor. It increments boost by .1 bar until it detects knock, then it knocks it back one. There are two pots on the module that allow you to adjust how sensitive it is and what max boost you want IIRC.

Im with you for sure on listening with my ears. The cans are so useful for all sorts of other engine noises too. I remember setting up my mates nissan on the motorway on the way to york drags and I was manning the 'cans, as he accelerates I hold my thumb up whilst there is no det, then as it starts to pink a bit the thumb starts to go down. On this occasion my thumb went down shortly followed by me shouting BIG ENDS BIG ENDS BIG ENDS hahaha. Sure enough by the time we reached the slip road you could just about hear it without the cans on. It had spun the shells in a big end, so with a new rod and shells it was ok. If we hadnt been listening through the cans it would have been too late and the crank would probably have been knackered too.

The only problem is you cant wear them while you are at the drag strip. We have been looking into making a cheap system with a microphone inside a copper tube bolted to the block, playing through the stereo, but it would take a lot of fine tuning to do.

[Andy]

Sounds like your mate has the APC kit from an old 900 turbo. The G40 uses a similar knock sensor as stock to that kit - but doesn't use it to control boost.

Couple of my work colleagues were looking at pulling old hearing aids apart for their amplifiers to make up knock detection kits, lol.

[Tommo]

Thats it! APC. It comes off the car as full stand alone kit, and is better than the most expensive boost controllers, at a fraction of the cost!

Doesnt the G40 use it to set the timing? not in a closed loop fasion.

Hmm, hearing aid could be as good as anything. I wonder if you can get one with a headphone socket on lol.

Unfortunatly im useless with electronics, I really admire the blokes that make their own ECU's etc, its somthing that I just dont know anything about.

[Tommo]

Personally I think megasquirt is a bit gash, I like the scrap yard nature of the thing but the way they go about configuring it all is a bit electroniky for me. Its like a uni students project.

If I was to do my own EFI it would be VEMS without a shadow of a doubt. Built in map sensor and it will practically map its self in closed loop.

[dub-disaster]

Do standalone managment systems such as megasquirt realy gain you anything g over digifant other than the obvious that you are more likley to be able to map them yourselvs there not actualy any more accurate or have any other advantages do they ??

[Yoof]

Not really- unless you've got a large amount of time, or are a skilled calibration engineer, you won't see any advantage, the resolution is better on most, and they have additional features too. Main reason why people buy them is because the emulator and wideband set-up to map digifant is getting on for £1k.

Tommo/Rae- VMES and MEgasquirt both have closed loop control systems, and A/F target tables, you're very mistaken if you think the ECU will 'map' itself though, far from it, most will only apply a 10% correction factor on current values at most. Far better to understand and have a human do it for you