Club G40 Forum
Technical => Engine and Transmission => Topic started by: youngprodigys on February 02, 2010, 10:21:28 pm
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Hi guys, im approaching the end of a very tiring rebuild 3+years.
And the time has come to setup my engine, needs the idle setting and the co2 potentiometer etc etc.
I wont lie - i havent a clue and im not going to drive it anywhere until its stopped idling fast. i know the timing is out, its a brand new dizzy and i dont have a timing gun.
Im hoping someone wants to come round and set it up for me to which i will pay for the privilege.
and to anyone who thinks there in for a game - take a look at the bay, you wont even get oil on your hands.
no fooking about it running
BRAND NEW SPARK PLUGS (G40 W5DPO OR SOMETHING)
BRAND NEW CAM BELT
BRAND NEW DIZZY (G40 BOSCH)
A PERFECT co2 POT
BRAND NEW PSD TOOTHIE PULLEYS
BRAND NEW BLUE TEMP SENSOR (VAG)
BRAND NEW VERNIER (UNADJUSTED)
no money has been spared on this,
Im located in Bedworth, which i 1 mile from J6 of the M6
(http://www.youngprodigys.com/2010finalstages/bay.jpg)
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Have you set the cam timing correctly?
What chip are you using?
What injectors?
Have you set the CO pot to ~550ohms?
If you get really stuck I might be able to help (am about 25 miles away), but I'm short on time at the moment!
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The cam timing (pulley) is unadjusted, its 100% as VW intended, the camshaft is a PSD 1341 eaton spec. the chip is from Gwerks and is mapped to suit the spec. running G60 injectors, and the co2 pot i have set at 550ohms (pins 1-3 done with multimeter)
i have done some research, but id rather have a G40 guru turn up!
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sorry to go off topic but is that a tt dash i see fitted and some rallye headlights?
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Can't help you out with your setup mate but that 'bay looks the b*llocks! - fair play.
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If you can get it to Jct 18 of the M6 I don't mind setting it up ;)
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is the idle screw all the way in?
is the throttle body dewedged and not leaking?
obviously an air leak letting too much air in at some point.
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Mine idles quite high when its cold although im running 300cc injectors.
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I can get you a timing gun if you want?
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No MOT on the thing as you can imagine after being 3yrs in the making - so no trip to junction 18 :-(
i have tried screwing th idle all the way in and it goes until it bottoms out. still fast idle.
the throttle body is on brand new gaskets and is dewedged. it must have an air leak somewhere i just cant find it.
and to be honest it is so much easier if i had someone who knew what to look for and how to set it. lovely of the offer giorgio,but getting a timing gun isnt an issue - its using the fooker - properly
there must be someone close who can help.....££££££ money to be earnt;-)
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I am upto my nuts in Portuguese trying to get a car + a shit load of flight cases to Brazil so cant lend a hand but will ask about tomorrow if somebody fancies is.
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Seriously smooooth!! i like that alot .... good luck with the set-up matey!
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cheers,
the offer is wicked giorgio but i just cannot let just anyone loose on my engine. they HAVE to know the G40. there is to much money and time gone into this to have someone who isnt up to speed come and detonate the fooker. they have to be clued up.
thats why im asking on here as the peps seam a lot more into the G40 then the "will a electric supercharger make my car go faster" club polo crew,
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idle has been sorted. so now its a case of setting up the sensors to make it run as it should. saying that its running pretty sweet:-)
ANSWER TO THE FAST IDLE IS VISABLE IN THE PICTURE - Blue peter badge to the winner
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the fuel pressure regulator vaccum pipe?
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nope - thats perfect - in the correct place of the correct length and brand new:-)
try again, your close to it
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jubilee clip on the throttle body not connected!
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its not under boost, + thats done up now (its an old picture) its not a pipe loose as such - rather something not finished which is causing it
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the random hose thats not plugged in. just to the right and up of the oil cap.
or you left some autosol in the engine when you were cleaning your freshly chromed bores?
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nope - not a reflection of a ht lead hahahaha
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Throttle cable. The loop is quite tight and it's a bit kinked where it comes through the bulkhead.
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i dont think anyone is going to spot it so il just point it out.
The brake servo is incomplete. i put the reservoir on put some nuts on the M/C and now it idles. just simply wasnt sealed. daft mistake really.
i still need it setting up though but its nice to have a base to do it against rather then a wailing Eaton deafening you.
what has everyone got there G40 set at
Idle once warm........ ?
Co Pot once warm...... ? (anyone with G60 injectors and either Eaton or stage5?r1 Lader for a base setting.
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as far as I know dude its 550 then let the ecu go from there
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idle should be about 800-900 when warm. There is no "correct" setting for the co pot thats why its adjustable and not a fixed resistor, needs setting up on a gas analyser but 550-650 is a reasonable base setting.
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nice one, cheers people, makes my life a little easier!.
fingers crossed!
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Folks I've seen this car In the flesh and it will blow your socks off. The effort kieran has put into this g40 is phenominal and I am comfident enough to say It is a contender for best in show at edition 38. Some of the twists and engineering he has carried out are breath taking.
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well.. we should be allowed to see some more piccy's :D !
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Cant give to much away mate, heres the only thing im prepared to show you. there is literally 100s of tiny little mods which everyone is going to love.
(http://www.youngprodigys.com/2010finalstages/dash.jpg)
See you all at the major shows this year
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Fair f*ckin' play matey!
I've got the TT seats and nearly did the dash at one point but bottled it - looks awesome. :o
Much chopping/swearing involved I take it? Does everything work?
Can't wait to see this in the flesh - G40 show pimpin!
8)
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yes it did take one hell of a chop to get it in, but that was the easy part - wiring the bloody thing was the hard bit. everything works!
Help still needed on the setting up of this thing.
im sure it wouldnt take someone more then 20mins - easy money££££££
just need to know its ok - ive only saw 1 more G40 running in the last 2years! and that was Nick s's at the rolling road day.
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You got the TT dials etc and everything? Very impressive !
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yes mate. got it all. all working aswell.
anyone shed some light on what's going on with my motor, it's ticking over smoothly at 1000rpm and every now and then (1 minute gap, 2 minute gap) it will miss fire. and it's sporadic aswell. hmmmmmm
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it is set up to spark on the Z mark. the engine is running smoothly and seams ok - just once in a while it will randomly miss.
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Ready to scrap this now and break it for parts. cant get it running properly and ive lost all heart in it. developed a new fooking problem now - alternator light is on at idle unless you rev it - then it starts charging. brand new alternator later and another £100 out of my bank balance and nothing has changed.
car runs rough and then cuts out. unless someone comes and helps me out now this car will be broken
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could be a shit battery? or poor earth
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battery is brand new. also tried my dads rover battery which is fine and it does the same on that.
ive checked all i can. unless someone comes and sorts it its going. quite a waste really
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yer iv replied on the other thread, its not that - its brand new and is making a really good contact
ive been out on it for the last 2hours checking all of the earths and making sure they are all there and all intact.
i have a thick strap running from the charger bracket to the body.
another on the gearbox to the n/s chassis leg
i have also ran an extra strap from the chassis leg to the inlet manifold earths
and an additional earth to the ignition amp to the chassis leg
any more????
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sounds like some sort of loom issue then to me.
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just cant see where i would have one.
all the wires check out when i test the ecu connector against the engine, and the wires from the alternator - all 3 of them lol are present and correct. AAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH
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when you say when you check the engine against the ecu - what do you mean?
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check the pins go to the correct sensors on the engine and in the correct place. and also with the ignition on i checked the voltages/earths etc against the ecu on "power on"
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timing belt isnt a tooth out as it is as Beavis timed it - all i did was changed the belt for a new 1 and when i did it i tipex'd the belt and the pulleys to ensure they went back in the same way.
blue temp senso is genuine brand new vag tested in a pan of hot water as per your diagnostic guide
"if you've toothed pulleys then i've seen a lot of g40's that the alternator light comes on until it is revved up even though it is outputting the right voltages" THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT! anyone have this problem? it could be that its not spinning fast enough at idle.
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still re-check the timing, people can make mistakes no matter how good a mechanic you think they might be.
I sometimes get the alternator light on when first started up at idle and a quick blip of the throttle gets rid of it and it stays off then.
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I know this isn't of any help but mine used to do this with toothies on light on untill I just bliped the throttle a little then it went out giving out all the right voltages though !
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all parts for sale.
had enough of it.
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You don't really wanna do that mate not after all the work you put in to be defeated by a couple of very small running issues, just keep trying maybe take it to a few specialists see what they think.
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have you done the electrical as well as mechanical timing?
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Replied to your PM.
Stick with it.
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back to where i was 1month ago
now it turns on and the engine runs with the alternator charging correctly.
Misfire at idle and the hesitation when the throttle is blipped i think has been fixed also - rear breather in the block was blocked up really bad - and it was breathing out of the oil filler cap. so im guessing it was breathing up through the rings into the combustion chamber! which might explain why there was water vapour in the exhaust.
Could this be the answer to Ben Harrisons G40????? same symptoms as mine
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well it wasnt the oil breather being blocked that was making any difference. car turns on and then cuts out. nothing changed.
im hoping when Andy comes over for a look he cant find out the fault - or everything is for sale im not even joking - ive gone from having a car i adored to something i cant even bare to look at
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So is it idling ok now as per your post on the 22nd March or starting then cutting out?
Does it drive ok or misfiring?
So poss could be idle pot M/S, coil (changed it?), bad map, or ECU sensor wiring (get it started and unplug the blue CTS or lambda). I had a wiring fault on my old red G, bleedin nightmare to eventually diagnose.
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I only got it idling by adjusting the co2 pot well out of bounds. now it's set to 550ohms it starts and cuts out. all ignition components are brand new. it's running rich as the plugs are black. when cleaning it all out Saturday I found lots of black water in the inlet manifold- WTF has caused this? barring in mind all components have been cleaned before this engine was assembled.
if I disconnect the blue temp sender it will not start. this is brand new vag and is working perfect as I checked it in boiling water and it's right.
the lambda probe makes no difference to the running if I unplug it or not. doesn't run for long enough for me to test anything.
must be 1000s in brand new parts for this engine and it runs shit.
anyone had these symptoms before?
oh and my loom is new- I built it from scratch and have tested each wire does what it should 12v, 5v earth etc etc as per the autodata pin out. earths are good aswell as I have ran additional earths to the inlet etc etc.
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What injectors and map are you running?
Have you altered the stock vacuum system in anyway?
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injectors are G60's and the map is a Gwerks map to suit spec.
when I get the bugger running and mot'd I was going to get different injectors and a proper custom map like I did with PSD before.
vacuum system consists of the original vacuum 1way valve with new vacuum tubing to original lengths. BUT the pipe to the brake servo from the 1way valve is different. can't see what difference this would have tbh. haven't tried removing servo pipe and blocking it up.
do you know what the black water stuff is yoof?
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I don't think G-Werks have an eaton map, you've been sold something generic (probably SNS Stage 5 for greens) which might explain the crap running.
The black water stuff you describe is strange and without smelling it I don't know... I'd check your boost pipes and make sure there's no water got in via the BRV when washing it etc.
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Run it for as long as you can and take a pic of the plugs, then upload it here :)
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plugs were black when i took them out - indicating over fueling.
i specifically told them about my setup and told them its was one of steves Eaton kits and they said they had access to his map collection and could sort me out.
The black water wasnt petrol and didnt smell of anything.
Cannot be boost return as all the pipework from the charger to the inlet is brand new and so is the intercooler - all has been custom made. and it has no boost return.
i have washed it all out using petrol now so its back to clean and shit free.
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Back to basics then- cam timing first, followed by ignition once the engine is warm with blue temp sensor unplugged.
Fluid sounds like water... unless it's the charger oil system leaking.
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problem is - i cant get it to stay on long enough to do it. just got all my diagnostics setup and before i got to check the sensors were in paramaters i snapped the lug of the vacuum lead for the ecu....DOH! so il get a new 1 tomorrow and see whats in parameters.
to get it to stay on i need to adjust the co2 pot to something like 2k ohms which cant be very good.
me and my mate checked all of the ECU pins again tonight - all wires go to the correct senders/switchs and at the correct pins so i know its all intact.
hopefully its something simple.
Has anyone else had to adjust the co2 pot well out of range to get it running?
Andy says he will pop over sometime over easter to help me out which is magic as someone who is shit hot can take a look first hand and will spot something so obvious. i have replaced so much with brand new that i have eliminated shit components lol
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Have you got Aquamist fitted? If that fluid wasn't fuel, could it've been oil - or brake fluid?
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I have checked the brake servo line for any fluids and it's dry so it isn't brake fluid:-) I don't have aquamist. quick thought of the top of my head- it may be condensation sucked in from the intercooler as it's been stood through winter???? I shall rip apart tonight and see what's in there!
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RIGHT! we have a development!
did some tests 10 minutes ago - didnt care if the engine exploded to be honest.
i set the co2 POT at these conditions and turned the car on. here are my results
Using a multimeter set onto the 2K setting and checked using a datum 150ohm resistor reading 0.150
1.000 or 1000ohms - car turned on and 1second later died
.550 or 550ohms - car turned on and 1 second later died
0.400 or 400ohms - car turned on, 2 - 3 seconds later died - throttle = instant die
0.200 or 200ohms - car turned on, spluttered after 5 seconds and again after 10 the exhaust popped when you gave the throttle cable any sort of pull and cut out after 16seconds
0.050 or 50ohms - car turned on and to be honest - it ran alright! a splutter after 16seconds but no popping from the exhaust, and giving some throttle the engine increased in revs not so much of a miss fire.
Is it possible that my chip is thinking i need 50ohms and not 500? i dont understand this!!!!!!
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no mate - ive done a pinout test - all pins and wires connect to the correct plugs. it matchs up with colours quoted in the haynes manual. + the throttle switch is a white plug - surely that goes into the white plug on the throttle - hard to get that wrong!
Co2 pot wires connect to pins 5 and 9 on the ecu connector as they should.
Could this signal a completely buggered lambda?
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I've made the throttle switches connector/Co-pot connector cock-up myself before :) but yeah, it's the white plug that goes on the white connector on the TB.
lambda shouldn't come into it as it doesn't get used by the ecu till the engine has got some heat into it.
What about the blue temp sender? has that been swapped out?
At this stage I think you have a few options: take it to an auto-electrician or garage with diagnostic equipment, or, find someone local who can bring their g40 round for a day of swapping parts over till you find which part(s) make yours work, or, start randomly replacing parts with new parts (but this soon gets very expensive!).
I was chasing a fuelling issue on my g40 a few years ago which almost had me at the end of my wits. Turned out the ECU itself had gone faulty and swapping it with a replacement sorted my issues.
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mate the list of brand new parts on this engine is bloody stupid! the blue temp sender is brand new Vag and tested in boiling water and it reads correctly. i tested last night that it goes into the correct pins on the ecu - earth is pin 6 (the shared one) and pin 10
i have also checked that knock sensor goes to the knock sensor aswell!!! i rebuilt the loom so i know its correct - and it tested ok last night.
Im hoping andy will be able to spot something and he might be uber kind and do the swapping game! even though i have virtually everything brand new now after chasing this daft problem. onlt things left to change are the lambda, ECU and Co2 pot. co2 pot i have 3 of and all do the same so i dont think its that.
Theres a list of the brand new parts on my first post.
I think the ECU it starting to look suspect here or the map. might get a shitty cheapo map just to see if it turns on any better at 550ohms. andy might even have one i can try.
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haysey said everything i typed (again) before i could click post (again) damn you!
i'd love to get my hands on this to fix it. you're a 2 hour drive away though :(
thing is - for that 2hr drive i dont wana waste your time if you cant! it really is a mystery this piece of poop
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Quick one... does it run with throttle applied when starting it or same as start with idle? I assume it starts then dies immediately and not starts, idles for a few secs then dies?
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huh?
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i just tried this - hope its what you mean as i certainly wont be doing it again.
Set to 550ohms
Turned car on with foot resting on the throttle (just after the switch clicks)
It revved up but miss fired really really REALLY badly! so i took my foot off
it then cut out
turned it back on stays on for about 1second - cuts out
tried turning on again and then blipping the throttle - cut out instantly
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I mean the actual ECU itself, not just the eprom chip. But it'd be much better to borrow one than buying a spare one. The only "spare" I've got is the one I know is knackered though.
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what do the plugs look like? From what you are describing today it sounds like it may be running too lean to actually run. Do the plugs look white? Although I guess it might not have ran for long enough to have had an effect on them! I dont suppose you have access to a gas analyser?
Sorry if you've answered this before but what injectors do you have in it?
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already got a fooked G40 ecu myself from a previous adventure! sends no spark from it.
i had answered it lol but i dont mind answering again as appreciate everything i hear from everyone.
Plugs are black mate sooty black. ive cleaned em up and put em back in. i dont have a gass analyser no:-(
Injectors are G60 greens and i have resistance checked them all and 3 are 15.9ohm and 1 is 16ohm
Additional - ive got an old G40 chip ive just found - lets see what this does! (il just turn it on - no revving) see if it stays on!
il also take the plugs bak out and inspect them as ive not turned it on much since i cleaned em
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is the ECU ship you are currently using definiately one for 250cc injectors? Do you have the stock g40 chip and stock injectors? I'd swap them both back in and see if it runs then if you do have them.
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i have a G40 chip of some description! it was in the replacement ecu i bought years ago. the stock injectors are in a bag at my mum and dads so i cant test them tonight but i will defo do that 2moro night! thats a really good idea mate - if it runs ok with the old stuff in iv found my problem.
And yes i told Gwerks i was using G60 Greens and need a map to suit
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HAYESEY - WHEN I SEE YOU IM GUNNA KISS YA!
Put the other G40 chip i had into the ECU and it runs fine with the co2 pot set to 550ohms.
i can rev it and it dont miss
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8) good stuff, glad you've finally got to the bottom of it. I guess g-werks have accidentally sent the wrong map?
Thanks for the kiss but I'm prob not your type, I'll gladly share a beer with you at a show though!
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Im really fooking angry to be honest!
The reason i had to buy a new ecu was because a Gwerks chip fooked the last one.
Wont ever buy anything from them again. bills totalling about £350 have been caused by them now.
Chip £95
New ECU £140
Hall sender £70
Ignition amp - £40
another blue temp sender £23
Question is - where can i get a map from? Andy and Yoof....Do you reckon you can help me out here?
Il buy you a few beers my friend!
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Chip £95
New ECU £140
Hall sender £70
Ignition amp - £40
another blue temp sender £23
being a member on club G40.... priceless!
an if i was you mate the money you have spent take it to andy and get a custom map done.
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We've nothing for an eaton (that I know of, Andy might have..)- probably custom map time.
If I'm correct you've now fitted a stock G40 map with 250cc injectors and it works?
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i have fitted another G40 map of unknown origin. it was in a ECU i bought to replace the last one. its not a standard map i can tell that as it uses a daughter board and had a IC underneather the chip.
what it has done is allow me to turn the car on with 550ohms on the co2 pot...not 50-60ohms
it will rev when i put my foot on the throttle and not cut out. i am not reving it high! nor am i allowing it to boost as i wouldnt risk it as i dont know what the map sensor it set to read and knowing my luck it would be 7psi not 14psi. and yes with stock injectors.
I think andy will be playing custom map time with me. need a base map 1st tho to get thro MOT before i can take it on the road.
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Will give you a PM in a week or two, currently away with work a lot at the mo - but should have something to get you up and running well enough for an MOT before custom mapping. Sounds like your Eaton chip wasn't for greens...
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might have a chip for mot's using stock injectors and the throttle linkage disconnected so there's no boost- and a crazy power map. what would be the best injectors for this setup? and does anyone know what boost this charger setup produces?
I think I will put in a better map sensor aswell ( I solder circuit boards for a job)
and nice one andy, when ever is best for you mate as I think your my only hope for a map lol
after 2 faulty maps and a huge bill for parts I wouldn't trust gwerks to hold my pint let alone do another chip
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Sounds exactly like all the fun ive been having! Poor running, rough as fuck when warm, annoying!
iirc, my maps a g-werks item so i wouldnt be at all surprised if it is that.
Hoping Jabba can help me out as they're real local.
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could be worse; steve could of mapped your car ;)
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hahahaaha giorgio.
I wonder how hard it would be to alter your map in your ecu to run mine. the only real difference is that yours is 1341 instead of 1272. is it posible to read the chip to attain the data- and then alter the fueling to suit a smaller capacity?? I'm sure andy will know this.
what psi does your setup make giorgio?
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i think giorgio is saying you dont want it!lol
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is giorgio not on emerald anyway?
if i was you mate id look into standalone management too. as under your bonnett is gonna look good so it would look even nicer with less wires and no coil.
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seems an unnecessary expense to me, just get someone to map the digifant.
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hahahaha no lol giorgio is running digifant because steve mapped his emerald! a very expensive paper weight!
emerald is nice but the project costs have spiralled out of control and the money isn't there for it
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already got a fooked G40 ecu myself from a previous adventure! sends no spark from it.
You may be able to fix your broken ECU if it works other than not firing the ignition coil. The coil amplifier is driven by a transistor which may have failed (they are less than £1 from Maplins). I did work out which one it was once (along with the one that stops the fuel pump running when it fails). I will try to dig out the details and post it up.
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Details of which transistor to change for ignition coil not firing are towards the end of the thread below (it may not be the problem but its cheap enough to give it a try).
http://www.clubpolo.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=110223&hl=
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that maybe a very good way to make myself some coin! if I can fix it il use it and flog the other. nice one mate!
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Depends on what the G-werks map you have is for spec wise. Mine passed a MOT easily with the chip in. Had to rev it abit to keep it running tho.
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perks of working in an electronics lab assembling antiskid circuit boards for aircraft- I can use the equipment:-) and 1 22p transistor later and the broken ecu is fixed! awesome lad. gunna install a bigger map sensor now.
my car is a 1994 so I should have a cat- but don't so I need the emissions really low
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perks of working in an electronics lab assembling antiskid circuit boards for aircraft- I can use the equipment:-)
So your to blame for our recent spate of NWS and AS faults, lol. ::) :D
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hahahaha lol - depends on which aircraft it is you have these faults on!