H&R Cup with a Stage 3 Subframe

[Justin14100]

Im thinking of going to some H&R Cup springs and shocks, but I have a stage 3 subframe with no anti-roll bar. Does anyone know what the roll would be like on this setup? I know these have a great ride quality but I don't want any serious roll on the body, does good roll quality mean no stiffness?

[cheys03]

I can only speak from experience of a couple of combinations that I've tried, hope it helps a little.

1. Spax -40mm springs and Spax uprated shocks.
Springs have a reputation of being stiff...and they are! Too stiff for my liking with the arb, but pretty good with the Stage 3. Not a great deal of body roll, doesn't feel too different for roll to when the arb was present with G-laderseite blocks. Castor is set to be the same as with the blocks.
On the back are slightly chopped standard springs and Spax uprated shocks, which is a great combo actually as there's not a lot of weight back there.

2. Standard springs chopped - 30mm-ish and Spax uprated shocks.
Yes, I'm an idiot for even thinking this would work. Wanted to soften up the front a little but the result was comical.

[Jezza-7]

Justin, i spoke to someone this week who said if your driving style is more road than track he said the bilstein B12 is the kit to have. Someone wrote a review for it and said it took the body role out and was still comfortable.

I have been looking at coilovers and sus kits but im now getting B12.

I know there a little bit more but bilstien are the best and there with eibach springs. i think its 30-35mm drop on a g40.

[dub-disaster]

did you tell that person that your car had the ARB removed therefore eibachs spring rates would be out by a little bit ??

[Jezza-7]

Yeah thats kinda already taken into account.

[Justin14100]

bilstein hey, well now that I work in london its no longer a daily so ill be looking at more weekend driving - track work for it. I always heard H&R were the best but ill deffo look into these. Ideally I want a anti-roll bar on my subframe but thats a totally different story.

[dub-disaster]

Yeah thats kinda already taken into account.

his that taken into account ?? Just wondering as id like to run a similar set up but thought the removal of the arb  means you need a higher spring rate to account for the missing roll bar stiffness.

[Andy]

It does need stiffer springs at the front really to compensate for lack of ARB.

Spent a lot of time before taking my car to the bodyshop experimenting with ARB fitment. Salzmann manages it, but his method heavily restricts steering lock unless you're running really low ET rims. As well as that challenge, there's only a narrow gap for the ARB to fit in between wheel envelope and chassis, and to fit in the necessary drop links/bushes.

[dub-disaster]

In an ideal world i would run some updated "road" suspension with the frame and an anti roll bar but as Andy said its nite that easy.The easy way out is to run stiffer springs upfront when i had my last coilovers on the car they ran 230lb springs which i found fine the i couldn't tell the arb was gone even when covering very very hard,this said it was still on road so as hayesey  and yoof  have found out ever stiffer springs may be required on a track.
Andy out of interest was this with standard polo arb ? Did you try all the types in your garage ? What sort of offsets are we talking low or stupid low ??

[Yoof]

We tried 4 out, mk2 escort, smart car, tata nano, and stock Polo!

There's a few problems:

1) Wheel to ARB contact when on lock- solved with ~ ET0 wheels (which means stock Polo arches are a no-no)

2) Drop link to TCA/Compression Strut/drop link off strut body- Basically there's no room! Driveshaft limits drop linking above the tca/strut link, and ground clearance limits going below it.

3) Link ARB to strut (ala Salzmann) means disconnecting the ARB for every castor adjustment

4) Angle of ARB required to ft under the front frame bar, means you'd have to modify the inner arch on some cars

All in all- it's not a 'mass market' idea, or one that could easily be retro-fitted to current stage 3 frames. The answer lies in a stage 3 with modified mounts to accept ARB blocks under the front feet, and a custom ARB with drop links to the compression strut.

For serious track use, you really need coilovers to get a stiff enough spring, especially if you're going to be using slicks.

[PeteG40]

I can only speak from experience of a couple of combinations that I've tried, hope it helps a little.

1. Spax -40mm springs and Spax uprated shocks.
Springs have a reputation of being stiff...and they are! Too stiff for my liking with the arb, but pretty good with the Stage 3. Not a great deal of body roll, doesn't feel too different for roll to when the arb was present with G-laderseite blocks. Castor is set to be the same as with the blocks.
On the back are slightly chopped standard springs and Spax uprated shocks, which is a great combo actually as there's not a lot of weight back there.

2. Standard springs chopped - 30mm-ish and Spax uprated shocks.
Yes, I'm an idiot for even thinking this would work. Wanted to soften up the front a little but the result was comical.

sam's experience with his spax kit was that the shocks were fine, just the springs which were UBER hard.... this is kinda reflected above.

[djtez]

You can use this ?

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.sgt-motorsport.de/&ei=fbmjT4anJ8Te8AOR9-S8CQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CHMQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsgt-motorsport%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D609%26prmd%3Dimvns

Allows ARB and supplies blocks also..

A personally run Stage 3 frame.
A have Kw shock a spring kit (think this is called clubsport)
A think its perfect for the subframe, quite stiff in the matter of our bad roads make me just about a bit.
But overall i can go onto a roundabout and commit myself quite high rate of speed and its soft enough to allow car you lean the weight on the outer wheels.. im happy enough with this set-up

[grungeisdead]

ive ran a full stage 3 frame and HnR cup kit for many months and never had any problems, now reverted to a stage 2 frame and sold the stage3 frame to cheys03.

i dont drive my car enough in anger to really comment and exactly how it handles but ive always found it nice and compliant, never felt once that ive been in a position where i could get unstuck. done some curved slip roads onto motorways, at motorway speeds with no hassle!

[Andy]

You can use this ?

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.sgt-motorsport.de/&ei=fbmjT4anJ8Te8AOR9-S8CQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CHMQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsgt-motorsport%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D609%26prmd%3Dimvns

Allows ARB and supplies blocks also..

The SGT frame is just a pikey box section version of our Stage 2 frame, so there's no wishbones.

[breadman]

ive ran a full stage 3 frame and HnR cup kit for many months and never had any problems, now reverted to a stage 2 frame and sold the stage3 frame to cheys03.

i dont drive my car enough in anger to really comment and exactly how it handles but ive always found it nice and compliant, never felt once that ive been in a position where i could get unstuck. done some curved slip roads onto motorways, at motorway speeds with no hassle!

Saf, you haven't found too much body roll when turning in sharply then? It is something I'm a bit worried about when I finally get mine on the road.