Club G40 Forum
Technical => Electrical => Topic started by: N1CKY on March 23, 2012, 03:05:33 pm
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Just received my PPP Chip in the post and put it in and my car wont start, Havent had a in depth look yet but when i put the old chip in the car fires up no bother at all. Any ideas ? Only thing i can think of is timing ? Do i need to ajust the timing to accommodate the new chip ?
Nicky
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you got it in the right way? try it 180degrees round (notches on the chip and on the ecu socket should line up)
pete
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Yeh its in the right way, that would of been a blonde moment ::) Any more ideas ? It runs lupy as hell on half throttle. Saying to me its a timing issue. But it runs sweet with the old chip. And i dont have a DTI guage, And it has a CL pulley on :'(
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well thats some advance on the first post of it not starting.
its definately specced for the right injectors etc??
A bodge (without DTI and timing light) would be to adjust dizzy by ear.
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Its being a nightmare, if i unplug the blue temp sensor and time it up (advance by 5 degrees) it will idle but cut out when throttle is applied. Any ideas ? I need this done before tommorow!! :(
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List out your current spec again and I can check it against the chip spec.
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Also check that your current ECU is running a stock MAP sensor...
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It is all VAG stamped so im assuming that its standard. could you give me a ring andy if your worried about people getting your number, I wont take up too much time but i really need this done :(
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volvo t5 turbo
turbo specific cam - Unsure what make ?
ported and polished head
dewedged tb
250cc/min injectors
cant think of anything else ?
Also the oil pressure light if flashing with this chip ? its got plenty of oil in and it doesnt come on with the other chip
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Chip won't affect oil pressure, or the light! Sounds more like setup issues to me. You've still got the standard full throttle switch from memory - that is plugged in to the right connector isn't it?!
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yep all correct. the oil pressure isnt bothering me atm its why it wont time up. could you give me a quick call if you have a few minutes ? ill pm you my number, call on witheld if you wish.
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Has the car been running fine and driveable 'til the chip was changed? Or have you had it apart to do other work and this is the first time you've tried it since?
If it cuts out whenever throttle's applied, and/or won't time up, then there's something fundamentally wrong. You said the MAP sensor was VAG stamped - that's strange, because they're not like that standard. Should have Bosch written on it and 200kPa. If the ECU has been modified to run a 250kPa MAP sensor that'll be why the car runs like a sack of shit with the new chip.
Does the car drive fine on the old chip, or are you simply comparing the ease of starting/idle between the two? Do you know what chip it originally had in it?
Running through the Digifant diagnostic guide on here in a methodical manner should pay dividends:
http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,214.0.html (http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,214.0.html)
Also some Autodata info on the ECU here:
http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5284.0.html (http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5284.0.html)
Before you do all that, please double check that the MAP sensor inside your ECU is standard, and that all the throttle switches and vacuum lines are plugged in correctly.
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Yes it was running spot on, And ill take another look at the MAP sensor when i go down to the garage in a minute.
Had it to the rolling road today, The car wouldnt run properly at all with the PPP chip so had to switch to my old one, Not happy at all.
Loaded both binarys onto the computer and compared them, very radical differences in maps (Looking at a Hex graph). The guy at the rolling road said he hadnt seen 2 maps for the same car so different.
When my origional chip was put in, it timed up perfectly and was running sweet untill power drops off at 4.5k ?? Nothing to do with you but i thought id let you know.
I had high hopes for this chip, But at the moment im not happy at all.
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Clearly for there to be so much difference there's something that doesn't match the chip spec. You'd be amazed at the differences between a 250cc injector binary and a 310cc one, or a 200kPa MAP sensor vs 250kPa MAP sensor.
I'd be checking MAP sensor, injectors (post the part number up here - but be aware there are some bored-out injectors in circulation just to confuse matters!) and fuel pressure to see they're all what you think they are. We can only match up the chip to the spec info we're given, and clearly in this case something doesn't add up!
If you're still stuck, you could post me your current chip to analyse which might shed some light on the differences.
When it was on the dyno with the PPP chip did you get an AFR plot?
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The car wouldn't run well enough to put it on to do a full run with that chip.
Part no is 280150432.
I can't post the chip because I need it, ill be going back to the dyno later this week so ill get the binary if that will do ?
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Yep, a dump of the binary will help. Have you checked the MAP sensor is a 200kPa Bosch one?
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Yeh I new I missed something off, yep completely standard.
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Email us the binary of what runs and I'll take a look. Hopefully it'll shed some light on what's going on.
The car hasn't got an adjustable fuel pressure reg on it has it? And the idle and WOT switches are still standard?
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Yeh its an ajustable vaccum controlled one, could this cause issues ? The current chip is dying at 4.5k rpm and it didn't used to
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G40007 is designed for the stock fuel pressure regulator. Try a stock part and see how you get on. A lot of the aftermarket ones are rising rate, so alter the pressure differential between manifold pressure and atmosphere whereas it should remain constant. Also there's no guarantee what it's set to!
Could it be that the previous owner is using a standard chip and just used the adjustable FPR to sort of get it running?!
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No we put the fuel pressure reg on, ill switch back to standard. And the chip isn't a standard one, its from a german tuning called s-tech (its stamped on the chip) and I forgot to mention the idle switch is standard. I can't see that making it as bad as it is.
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Try it with a stock FPR for starters, especially if your 4.5k rpm issue only occurred after fitting it...
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In the middle of doing that and a few other bits atm, ill let you know how I get on. Cheers (y)
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Also stick up the part numbers from your MAP sensor, I want to check something.
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Still no look with your chip, part no. for map sensor:
Bosch 1 267 632 015
200kPa 3540BE
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Binary from the other chip will be helpful then. Get the dyno guy to email me the binary from our chip too, just to verify the EPROM data's not been corrupted.
Few more questions:
Is your ignition timing set to stock spec now?
How does it run on the S-tech chip now you've refitted the proper fuel pressure regulator? (Does it still choke up at 4.5k rpm?)
What does the car do with our chip installed? (Does it idle? How does it drive partial throttle vs full throttle?).
Have you got the ability to monitor air/fuel ratio with our chip installed?
What's your battery voltage read at the terminals with the engine running at idle?
What's your CO pot resistance set to?
Have you verified that the idle and WOT switches are switching correctly by measuring the resistance at the ECU pins?
Can you also verify which camshaft you've got installed? (Mark up the dizzy position so you don't have to reset ignition timing, and remove the dizzy. The end plate of the cam should be stamped with the manufacturer's marking. If it's blank remove the rocker cover to see if it's a VW cam.)
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Yeh ill email both, Its booked in again for thurs evening.
Ignition timing is at stock spec yes,
It seems to run fine, But as the car has no tax or it isnt insured i cant test untill i get it back to the rolling road.
Your chip will idle lumpy but as soon as throttle is applied it cuts out.
No way of checking AFR unfortunatly.
The altanator is working fine but ill check voltage after work.
Ill also check CO pot. What roughly should it be reading ? will it be in ohms, k, meg?
Which pins are the idle and WOT switch ? And do i just check resistance between the two ?
And as previously stated the camshaft is aftermarket but it isnt stamped, Iv had it out a few times now to have a look. Iv even phoned the place down country who fitted it, (Reciept came with car) and they said it was customer supplied. So i have no way of knowing.
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Resistance across pins 1 to 3 of the CO pot should be set to circa 550ohms as a baseline setting, however this should be properly set on a gas analyser. I'd note down the current setting and reset to 550ohms if it's different.
Info on checking idle (Closed-throttle switch) and WOT switch is here:
http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,211.html (http://www.polog40.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,211.html)
Any chance of some pics of the cam? VW items are always stamped inbetween the lobes with large letters, e.g. 030 with an AF underneath. Schrick cams are also marked up on the dizzy-drive end plate, and have nicely chamfered lobes. Piper are similar. Newman cams have a sharp edge on the lobes, and are usually hand engraved on the dizzy-drive end. Not sure about CatCams as I've never had one in my hands, but maybe someone on here can advise.
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Ill take some pictures of the cam after work, You said check resistances of the WOT switch ? I can only find voltage ratings that i can check ? on idle, Part and full throttle. Either way ill check.
Cheers.
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Found the problem at 4.5k RPM it wasn't the FPR or injectors, It was timing! Car wasnt happy 6deg advance at all, No idea why but we advanced it a little more, 8deg and it ran 189.3bhp! rather than the 118bhp on 6deg Fueling was a little lean on that run but its since been ajusted and running like a dream on the S-tec chip. So finally after we sorted that i figured we would try the PPP chip again. Still no luck, No throttle response and it wasnt working good at all. So please advise, I have the binary at home ill email it over the weekend.
Cheers.
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How did the dyno operator adjust the fuelling? Are you setting the ignition timing with the blue temp sender removed? The PPP chip is designed for stock ignition timing, not timing that's been swung around to suit another chip.
Send me both the binaries, but it's really sounding like a setup issue rather than anything else. Did you check the CO pot value?
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The stock timing was set, thats what I was saying. The other chip wasn't happy on stock timing. Your chip has always been run on stock timing (timing set with blue temp sensor unplugged) will email them tommorow. Far too tired to boot my pc now, and the CO pot was around 600ohms can't remember the exact figure but it wasn't far off 550
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So, just to summarise you've checked the following?
- WOT and idle switches operate okay
- CO pot is circa 550ohms
- Ignition timing correctly set to 6° with blue temp sender unplugged
- Standard fuel pressure regulator now fitted?
- Battery voltage at terminals whilst idling?
- Picture of cam?
And can you elaborate on "it wasn't working good at all" please? What did the AFR do when you applied the throttle? Did it idle smoothly? Did you try it full-throttle?
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Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Cant remember exactly, But around 13.7v i think
Havent had time
As i explained earlier, I couldnt measure AFR because the car wasnt running well enough to put on the rollers with your chip. And it was lumpy, Throttle response was shocking, It was just wanting to bog out and die, It idled okayish but it deffo wasnt right. And never held it on full throttle.
Ill email you the 3 files the dyno guy gave me, I cant make much sense of them.
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What’s immediately obvious to me, is that the S-tech chip is very similar to a standard G40 chip – there are barely any differences. The main fuel and ignition maps are hardly touched – see the pictures below for reference. Black is S-tech, green is standard chip.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/amstrange1/S-techFuelvsStockPY.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/amstrange1/S-techIgnitionvsStockPY.jpg)
The fuelling is slightly increased at higher boost levels, but only a touch, and the ignition timing has only been slightly massaged too. This is probably why you had to advance the base timing to get it running well on the S-tech chip, as the turbo’d motors generally take more advance to get a decent response.
The main difference to the stock chip is it has a 7000rpm rev limit instead of 6600rpm, and that the full-throttle fuelling correction has been increased to maximum from 3000-5000rpm. Is this S-tech chip designed for a turbo with 250cc injectors or something else?
The fuelling numbers in our G40007 chip are generally much lower (around 15% lower), as it is intended for 250cc/min injectors at 15psi boost. The ignition timing in G40007 is also much more aggressive. This is why your dyno guy will’ve mentioned there being such a difference in the maps.
You’re using a 192cc/min injector (S-tech) chip with apparently good results on a car with 250cc/min injectors. This leads me to the conclusion that either your injectors aren’t flowing 250cc/min; there’s an issue with fuel rail pressure; or that your setup has a huge appetite for fuel – even on idle and partial throttle.
Next steps would be to check fuel rail pressure (should be 40-45psi gauge pressure at idle, and 60psi at 15psi/1 bar of boost) and double-check that the injectors are 250cc items. Last of all, I would also remove the rocker cover and dizzy to photograph the camshaft for identifying markings. If it’s hugely different to the ‘turbo’ spec cams then that could possibly account for why your motor wants so much fuel.
Worth checking too that your throttle body has the white connector plugged into it, and that the CO pot has a black connector with a large rubber boot and blue; blue/white and blue/brown wires going to it.
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Replied via Email...
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What's the compression ratio of this motor?
Here's my thinking, bear with me...
If it's still stock compression and the g0007 chip hasn't been customised to the lower compression (g0007 designed for ~9.3:1 of a 1341?) then this would be the issue?
On the g0007 it would be underfueling should it still be std compression.
On the 192cc S-tech map I'm sure it will idle nicely (slight difference between the two injectors at low duty?) with the extra fuel provided by the 255cc injectors and probably drive nicely too if the stock lambda sensor has a say in it, until you hit boost that is.
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It's being run on stock injectors with the S-tech chip, which changes things a bit!
I've run G40007 on several cars with 1272cc 8:1 CR and 1341cc 9:1 CR without issue, as it's pretty generic - the lambda will have to work harder on some setups than others.
So, whenever the 250cc injectors and G40007 are fitted it runs badly. Injectors are secondhand from eBay, so ideally need checking out too. Turns out they're quad pintles, which we know fuel very differently to single pintles - especially at low duty cycles. I suspect (as we found on your car Chris!) that this isn't helping the fuelling at idle.
Last puzzle is what camshaft's fitted, as it doesn't seem to have any of the common identifying markings to suggest it's one of the conventional 'turbo' cams, only a 'G40' marking. Should it turn out to be a supercharged camshaft then that might explain why a stockish map works okay.
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It's being run on stock injectors with the S-tech chip, which changes things a bit!
Fair enough!
Turns out they're quad pintles, which we know fuel very differently to single pintles - especially at low duty cycles. I suspect (as we found on your car Chris!) that this isn't helping the fuelling at idle.
I think there's more to it than simply quad or single pintles - the actual spray pattern produced. I've a set of 255cc G60 injectors, 0280150905 in front of me and they are also quad pintle. It would be interesting to compare these on a test bench with the Ford-type injectors I had, as I remember Yoof saying the Fords had an excellent pattern and atomisation (which perversely caused the problems!).
With all the variation in injectors out there and little information about each of their spray patterns, it might be prudent to list part numbers of injectors tested with your chips in the application specs to ensure punters get suitable injectors and save both parties the time consuming troubleshooting such as this. I mean this as a friendly suggestion only, it's by no means a slight on your services, products or they way you conduct your business - just to make it clear as it's easy for anyone to mis-read this comment.
Last puzzle is what camshaft's fitted, as it doesn't seem to have any of the common identifying markings to suggest it's one of the conventional 'turbo' cams, only a 'G40' marking. Should it turn out to be a supercharged camshaft then that might explain why a stockish map works okay.
Be genuinely interesting to find out!
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I think there's more to it than simply quad or single pintles - the actual spray pattern produced. I've a set of 255cc G60 injectors, 0280150905 in front of me and they are also quad pintle. It would be interesting to compare these on a test bench with the Ford-type injectors I had, as I remember Yoof saying the Fords had an excellent pattern and atomisation (which perversely caused the problems!).
With all the variation in injectors out there and little information about each of their spray patterns, it might be prudent to list part numbers of injectors tested with your chips in the application specs to ensure punters get suitable injectors and save both parties the time consuming troubleshooting such as this.
Yep, it's the spray pattern that's critical - but generally quad pintle and newer is a good indication that it's one to avoid.
A list of suitable injectors is a good idea. At the moment as far as 250cc items go I can only add G60 items to that list, as that's all I've run on my own car or mapped cars with them on. Any other injectors would be based on info from third parties, and as I can't be confident in the reliability of that data I'd be reluctant to publish it as 'approved' info.
In this instance the quad pintle arrangement might be fine, but unfortunately as the injectors were bought secondhand the owner has no way of knowing about spray pattery or functionality for sure. Two new parts are fitted to the car that breaks it: chip and injectors - so really we need to prove which of those parts are at fault here!
For anyone ordering generic chips, it's essential to ensure that a full spec list is given; and that any generic chip is only as good as the information supplied. In this case we have a car I was told had a 'turbo' cam - which it sounds like it might not have.
The owner was also made aware at time of purchase that the chip was for a K03, not the Volvo T5 turbo being used, so that the spec match wasn't perfect. Combine this with an unknown camshaft and you can see where the problems arise, especially if there are additional noise factors like dyno operator tinkering; untested secondhand injectors; adjustable FPRs; injector swapping; and ignition timing alterations going on. In these cases there's nothing like having the car in front of you - as we found out when mapping yours!
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and that any generic chip is only as good as the information supplied.
In these cases there's nothing like having the car in front of you - as we found out when mapping yours!
Agree with both these points 100%!
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As i said via Email, The s-tech chip runs fine with the 250's in (Rich obviously) but nothing like when your chip is installed.
You had the engine info, And the only thing i see different was the turbo, which will only effect fueling etc on boost ? It would barely idle never mind boost.
You also knew the situation with the camshaft, I told you i didnt know what cam it was, It isnt marked. I can only relay information that was told to me, As i said via email, Im not in a financial situation to change the camshaft at the moment, Especialy just to rule it out as a factor of why a chip wont work.
And Dyno operator tinkering ? He didnt touch the map at all, All he done was run the car on the rollers, check ignition timing and ajust AFR. The FPR was removed, ignition timing was at stock. You making it sound like your in this holy light and im a little elf who doesnt have a clue, Granted i know less than yourself, but no need to dumb people down to the rest of the forum to make yourself look superior. I understand you have a reputation to keep, having a buisness and all, but theres no need?
Also, As stated you didnt specify that it needed specific 250cc injectors ? Why only bring this up now ?
I will be at the garage tomorow after work, Ill grab a few photos of the camshaft.
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I'm not trying to dumb anything down Nicky. But you've hardly been consistent in your replies or forthcoming with information. It took countless questions to find out about the adjustable FPR, we've still not established how the dyno operator is adjusting the fuelling despite asking several times, and only yesterday found out that you'd been swapping injectors and the chip around which has a big effect on the analysis of what's going on!
You told me that your camshaft was a 'Turbo specific cam' at the time of your order. The detail about not really knowing at all what it is came out later - I can forward you the email you sent if you like for reference?
I'm not suggesting the dyno operator altered the chip (he'll struggle, as it's a write-once EPROM...), but you've said that he's been 'adjusting fuelling'. Is that not altering the setup of the car if he's not altering EPROM data to do it?!
Feel free to post me the chip back for a refund, it's easier for all involved.
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Hello, sorry for the late reply. Car started burning serious amounts of oil, So iv whipped it back out and fully rebuilding the engine, Using mostly VAG parts. Apparantly 3 sets of piston rings left in the UK checked interdealer as not available from vag themselves. So i orderd them and a door handle arrived... -_-. Anyway got all the parts i need now so will be building the engine up in a few hours. Andy if you want to drop me a PM ill get the chip posted back to you asap. As you can imagine iv been rather busy this past few weeks. Ill drop some pics in my progress thread soon.
Thanks for being patient.