Club G40 Forum
Technical => Turbochargers => Topic started by: Doc J on September 10, 2009, 09:00:43 pm
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OK, from where ot begin...
My G40 made me sooooo mad, when an oil leak appears 10k afer service the compressor. The G40 unit blows too much oil to the drossel clamp (a half litre for 250 km. was gone through the exhaust, whe worst diesel can't make that smoke). I thinked about Eaton M45 before, but when I thinked "People goes to turbo and they haven't so much problems. They even acheave more power." So, I've bought a K03. At the begining I'm planing just to install it and run on standart cam, injectors and 0.7 bar (I think stock Digifant can handle this with no danger, I know it's not the best efficiency, but the missing money...). And I'm planning a custom exhaust manifold with same almost lenght runners, a downpipe on F60mm.
I think it's good to now. ::)
But I've a question about the wather cooling of the turbo: Is it necessary or I can ignore it without some danger about the turbine unit? If it's necessary can I get some advice how to install it, from where to get water and where the water must go after the turbine?
And the next question is about the oil support. I think to get oil from the standart place on the engine for G40 oil support, but is the stock oil lines good for K03?
I'm sorry if somewhere are writing-mistakes, but I'm not sure about some words how to write on english. :-\
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The water cooled bearing housings are mainly to prevent damage from hot shutdowns, and it isnt strictly neccesary. But Personally if it was possible I would rig it up.
As for the equal length manifold, it is a bit pointless really. The benefit is neglegable because there is little scavenge effect to gain. When you weigh up that against the fact that you will end up with longer tubes overall (reducing efficiency) and consider the fact that it will be taking up more room and increasing your underbonnet temps (possibly transfering heat into intake pipework etc) then you could argue that it is actually a disadvantage having an equal length manifold. Not to mention the extra effort to make it. But it is certainly not required to achieve more power if thats what you were aiming for.
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OK, after so much reading this day about the iron and it's alloys I found how to make the wather setup.
And about the manifold: 10x so much about your post. that gives me and idea about "how to make it equal-look, but not to get some space". I think I was lookin' before one similar in the german e-bay.
10x again.
Now I've got to read about how ot make the oil lines and is the stock good.
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Use the water lines, they're designed like that for a reason ;) Will put more energy (heat) into the cooling system, rather than the oil. Will also keep the turbo cooler which subsequently lowers your compressor outlet temps.
For the sake of a few bits of pipe, and two banjos, you'd be a fool not to.
Equal length manifold isn't of use with a K03 turbo on a G40 engine- cheaper and more robust cast log manifold will be more than adequate (and good for 200bhp+)
The standard location for oil feed (G-Lader feed originally) will be fine, but the return you must block off (fine pitch thread IIRC) and weld a fitting onto the sump for an oil return, the stock 20v return is 25mm (ish) which is plenty.
I'd also install 250cc injectors and get a decent turbo chip- don't rely on the MAP sensor and your current fuel/ignition values to work out what's going on!
Hope this helps,
Peter
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would g60 injectors run it ok reguarding the fueling?
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Depends on your map :)
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i need exhaust manifold flange to head vectorized
someone?
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May be You mean "WE need..." ;D
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OK, I'm on phase "buying some parts" until the manifold is ready. These days I red about "adjustable pressure switch" and that I need it. I PM'd Andy for some details (like price and can he send it to Bulgaria), but how the switch really works. I have to remove the current switch to the throttle and to install the adjustable, or it's an upgrade to the current? And how it works - it's sending wrong signals ot the Digifant that the switch is fully opened at any boost or what?
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i got one off ebay for £10 and you need a normally open switch,,T off your vacuum to the ps,tap off the ground that goes to the WOT and idle switch and cut the WOT switch wire and run them to the ps get a multimeter to it and set it at 5-6psi while revving it up to pressurise it.thats what i have done anyway and seems to work.insted of the throttle switch/wot as that chucks more fuel in at full trottle and the pressure switch will at 5-6psi so on boost really,hope that helps
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OK, Last night I disassembled the throttle and removed the WOT-switch.
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0123.jpg)
So, cutted the wires (yellow and brown) that goes to the WOT. OK, anyone to show a good place to mount the Pressure switch ;D I think to mount in the place for WOT and to get a vacuum with T-piece from the map? Any advices?
On the next picture with green round is the place where I think to make a hole where to screw the PS and the place with "6-angle figure", where will stay the PS:
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0123_2.jpg)
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if i was you mate id leave the map sensor vac pipe alone and go off another.
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it's a nice idea to put it inside the throttle body like that, if it'll fit. I might even re-do mine like that!
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Yes, it fits last night I measured and it's like made for this place ;D but I'll do it this weekend and will post pics to show.
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What benifits does this pressure switch mod have?? And how does it work ?? Also what vacuum pipe do you t off from ? And all you need is an adjustable pressure switch? And lastly do I have to change my map as I currently have just the standard ko3 chip from ppp and I see they do a seperate map for this pressure switch setup.
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it's to do with the way in which a turbo and supercharger produce boost in different ways.
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Ok ... How come ppp do two different maps then one with the wot switch replaced and one without both turbo chips?? And still no one answeared my origianly questions of wich vacuum pipe do you t into and is the pressure switch just a normal pressure switch that is adjustable to 6 psi and is 6 psi what it should be set to ??
Is the current map I've got from ppp for a turbo setup going to work without doing this then do I need a the other map they do ??
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Why a 6psi boost switch?
Digifant has two main maps stored in the EPROM, fuel and ignition timing. These contain the core information that enables the engine to run. However, there are several additional tables/maps in the code that Digifant uses to apply correction factors to the information stored in these core maps.
One of these additional maps is a fuelling correction factor which varies with rpm - this factor is used whenever Digifant sees the car is on full-throttle - it looks up the fuelling value in the main fuel table, and then applies the correction factor on top.
For a supercharged (G-lader) application, whenever you hit full-throttle you're also getting lots of boost instantly, so you need lots of additional fuel. At say 60% throttle you'll be getting some boost, but you're likely to just be cruising along the motorway, so you don't need lots of additional fuel as the engine's not under a heavy load. However, full-throttle is different - you're at maximum load then and need the additional (rich mixture) fuel, so this is why the full-throttle fuelling correction factor is used.
This all goes to pot when you turbo the car. Full-throttle on a turbo doesn't mean you get lots of instant boost. As the turbo spools you can have no boost or vacuum until the turbo's wound up. This means that Digifant sees full-throttle and whacks a lot of extra fuel in - but you're not actually making any boost because your turbo's not spooled-up yet, and your engine's not under a huge amount of load. This extra fuel actually causes the car to bog down at low rpm on full-throttle, so makes the car feel very laggy.
So we use the boost switch to trick Digifant. We need the fuelling correction under high load, but not before the turbo's spooled - even if we are on full-throttle. So on a turbo application a good approximation to this is to use a boost switch set to come in at 6psi. This means Digifant won't massively richen up the mixture until it sees 6psi of boost - which works well on a quick spooling K03.
Why do I need a different chip if I don't run a boost switch?
If you don't run a boost switch and want to retain the existing Digifant setup, we need to do our best to reduce the massively rich mixture you can get on full-throttle at low rpm with no boost. This means editing the main core fuel map to remove a lot of fuel.
However, this is a compromise. The core fuel map is based on rpm and manifold pressure (MAP), so we take out a lot of fuel from the low rpm, no boost areas of the map to lean-out the mixture a bit when you're on full-throttle. But you might also need to use that bit of the map when you're not on full-throttle, when the additional full-throttle fuelling will not be applied, so under partial throttle you end up being too lean!
Put another way, say at one rpm/MAP point the ideal fuelling number is 50 - so you put 50 into the core fuel map. All is well, until you drive through that bit of the core map on full-throttle. Digifant will now apply a full-throttle correction, say 50 x 1.5 = 75. So you're far too rich. If you then wind the core fuel map figure down to 33, on full throttle you have 33 x 1.4 = 49.5 - so your fuelling is correct on full-throttle, but on partial throttle you're too lean. Hence the compromise with this setup.
dub-disaster
Your current chip will not work properly with a boost switch, so you'd need to change to our map designed to be used with one so that your partial throttle fuelling is correct. With the boost switch and chip to suit you'll find that partial throttle driveability is much improved.
You need a normally-open pressure switch, which should be set to close at around 6psi.
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Thanks for that andy that cleared it all up for me very helpful as always. Don't suppose you do exchange chips do you like I send you my ko3 chip and you let me have a ko3 pressure switch map For a reduced price do you!!!??Also wich pipe do I t off from to get an accurate Reading?? Does it matter wich one could I drill and tap a hole into the plenum?? Whilst I'm on this subject fitting a boost guage would I do the same thing drill and tap a hole in the plenum for the most accurate Reading ?? What's every one else done on there's?
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We began the work ;D
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0188.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0187.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0189.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0190.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0191.jpg)
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(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0202.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0203.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0204.jpg)
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Nice work Doc 8)
Did you fit the pressure switch in the throttle body like you said you would? Got any pictures of it fitted?
What is the make and part number of the switch you used, or what car did it come from?
Keep up the good work Doc,
Cheers,
Richard.
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If its any help this is the pressure switch i have gone for, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150401232368&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp4712.m38.l1313%26_nkw%3D150401232368%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1
its the correct one switch and very similar to the one used by ERL Aquamists version at half the price!
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Cheers jez, much appreciated. 'Couldn't find one on ebay, obviously not looking in the right place!
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Nice work Doc 8)
Did you fit the pressure switch in the throttle body like you said you would? Got any pictures of it fitted?
What is the make and part number of the switch you used, or what car did it come from?
Keep up the good work Doc,
Cheers,
Richard.
Yes, it's fitted, but I'll post pics tommorow, because in the most of the time my hands are in oil and can't get the camera.
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... and the pictures of the throttle with the pressure switch:
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0208.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0210.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0211.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0212.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0214.jpg)
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that's cool, I'm going to redo mine like that.
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I've done mine like this aswell, was a bit of a snug fit but it does go in there ok gotslightly different fittings on mine.
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OK, the K03 is already in the history. It's broken because the windage. So, I'm going K24 from Iveco 2.4 TD. I hope I'll got boost above 3000 rpm. What do You think?
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Probably not a bad choice at all. Diesels tend to have nice small turbine housings which suit smaller engines well. As a general rule a turbo will usually make 2/3rds of the power on a diesel engine than it does on a petrol engine, so find out what power the iveco is, probably around 120bhp i should imagine.
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Tommo in your opinion what other turbos would suit a g40 quite well and not have lag problems. There's k04 what do you think of that? There's the garret out of a 200sx isn't his what you've got ? I expect these are quote cheap and plentyfull rnt they?? What others would you suggest . I've currently got a k03 just keeping my options open n seeing what else works I'm not after monster power I want to have low boost power of 150-160 for day to day use n about 200 for when i'm feeling playful. Does a k04 take to long to spool up is that why people dnt use it ?
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to be fair ive never even seen a K04 so I wouldnt know.
As they say though, if you dont have any lag then you have the wrong turbo.
If I was to choose what turbo to fit to my car (as opposed to just using what was kicking about) I would use a garrett GT17 from a non aero SAAB 9-3 (IIRC!)
But, my best advice would be to look at what 'upgrades' they sell for similar FI cars such as the R5 Turbo, and then find out what other turbos are similar that you can get cheap off scrap cars. If you buy any turbo that is sold as an 'upgrade' it seems that you get raped for it.
Most turbo petrol cars have too small a turbo to keep them driver friendly, so look at anything around 1.6/1.8 producing 160/170bhp. You can chop and change many turbo bits around to make what you want like I did, but that takes a bit more research.
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Hmm that fits a t25 flame doesn't it, is this the turbo your talking about http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VW-Turbo-Charger-03G253014J-GT1749V_W0QQitemZ180464542092QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2a0486618c#ht_1500wt_948 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VW-Turbo-Charger-03G253014J-GT1749V_W0QQitemZ180464542092QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2a0486618c#ht_1500wt_948) just out of intrest aswell tommo how'd you adjust your boost via a bleed valve ??
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A K03 will give you really nice spool-up and general response and easily deliver 160bhp on a stock bottom end if correctly setup - you won't need to run silly boost either. T25 will prob do the job too, though a bit laggier. Use a 'turbo' cam with the K03, and a stock GT one with a T25.
Garrett GT17 can be found on lpt Saab 9-5s. Tiny bit bigger than a K03 if memory serves.
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I'm definantly going for a 1341cc bottom end and going to go accralite for off boost driveability. I want to be able to switch between high boost and want 190-200 bhp and power boost for 160bhp. Only reason I was going to try the gt17 as I thought it mite work out cheaper as it's a tiny bit bigger I could get closer to that 190-200bhp figure without having the expens of buying a bvh and aqumist aswell I know a bvh isn't nessesary but on higher boost settings I wanted closer to 200 just thought I mite give it a try is that the right turbo in the link? Can pick up a t25 manifold of german eBay get a down pipe made n just test it out see what happens !
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That turbo you posted above is a vg unit I think, I cant find any data against the part number thats in the listing.
The GT17 is deffinitly bigger than a K03, and for sure a bit smaller than mine lol. My mate fitted a GT17 off a SAAB to his mini and it was great, pulled well from low revs. I think he dyno'd it at 18psi with 147bhp with 176lbs/ft of torque (@ mikanicks or whatever its called) But you have to remember thats on a mini with only 2 tiny inlet ports and 3 exhausts. Standard head as well, hence the low power high torque.
Personally I wouldnt advise a BVH. For the money it just seems like such a small gain, the VW exhaust valves arent exactly tiny as it is. I dont know how much they are but im sure you could put that money to good use somewhere else and then fit a BVH later on if you really need more power. Im guessing a GT cam in a BVH will probably only flow as much as a lairyer cam in a standard head anyway, rendering a BVH with a GT cam a bit pointless.
I adjust the boost with a bleed valve (or by shimming the actuator if its miles out), its a bit crude but it does the job well enough for my car.
200bhp is a massive amount of power in a polo though and I think its pretty pointless, I guess for a lot of people its just a target to work to or its purely for bragging.
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I think in light of this and thinking with a big more of ansensible head on. I'm going to not bother with a bvh as it is alot of cash for minimal returns. But I will go for a 1341cc engine with a 9:1 cr for the better economy and off boost drivability I will stick with my k03 cause it's cheap to replace and I've already got all the bits and it spools up nice n quick! I'll have a low and high boost setting so I can drive around with 160 bhp and turn the boost up for some 180-190 bhp madness once in a while as you say tommo the 200bhp is just for bragging rights I think. Thanks for the advice though.
I was mainly thinking of a bvh as I know of one for sale and the valves rnt in stock any more with jabba but £600 Inc vat is alot of cash for an extra 10 or so ponies
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No worries, cheaper is always better! lol.
£600 + VAT! lol, Crikey. thats approx £60 per BHP, not a good ratio. I wouldnt far off sell you my entire car for that lol, then you wouldnt have two boost settings, just 2 cars lol.
Low boost setting is a good idea and im deffinitly gonna do that with my car before the summer, Should make launching the car a lot easyer, then as soon as you get in 4th hit the power button on the steering wheel fast and furious style!
My car is approx 8.7:1 and off boost its good.
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By the time you hit 200bhp an LSD, decent suspension, bigger brakes and subframe start to become necessary to push it as hard as you could a 130bhp stockish G40 on the road.
I love my switchable maps - only have 133bhp and 175bhp cals that are useable, but you can have much more fun on the lower powered one!
As for BV head on 1341cc - Robin's and Yoof's cars were virtually identical specs apart from the BV head. Robin's made 194bhp, and Yoof's was 203bhp with a K03. There may've been a couple more bhp in Yoof's as we never did a final dyno map on it, but certainly not loads more power.
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well i had (Still have at the moment!) ive got to weld the gearbox mount again replace two of the rose joints and then im going to sell it for a ppp one , if theyve still got one and if theyl have me back after defecting to the dark side :P so ill have a sub frame and lsd will be on the list aswell. still in two minds weather to go for a bvh 1341cc both or just turn the boost up on my standard engine cause 180bhp aint to shabby at all realy n thats what im lead to belive by other posts is possible with a standard internals n more boost.
i spoke to somone today who has a 9:1 cr 1341 cc n he said he cant tell the difference of boost between his car and his mates wich is standard . is there much of a noticable difference andy ?? yea £600 is steep for a bvh head but you can sell your own head so knock of £100 to £150 and hopefully when im done building this engine after my shell rots out (not to distant future !!) i plan on keeping my engine n moving it to a new home probably a mk1 so a bvh mite be an investment for me and now that jabba has run out of valves and has no intention of stocking any more kinda made sense to me a little . as buying them direct from manufacturer in a batch less than 12 sets is likley to cost £40 per valves !
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mine is stock head with cat cams turbo cam and verier pulley, 1341 9:1 bottom end, ko3 turbo on rothe manifold. id expect around 185bhp but i also have dta standalone using the wasted spark and i am fitting R6 bike throttle bodies and using the inlet with plenum off a pulsar gtir then a shit load of time and tig welding rods lol (nearly finished now though).
be interesting to see what difference the bodies make if any haha. just thought id do it as it isnt really costing me much and i dont know of another with the same setup. i would say there is bound to be one with ITB's somewhere though. maybe one of the wise G40 people willl know of one.
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just out of intrest lance how much did your 1341cc 9:1 cost you? did you build it yourself ? im thinking of doing my own but ive never done an engine before and dont want to bugger the engine with some £500 pistons init ! also do you notice better off boost drivability and econmy with the higher cr ??
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i built it myself mate but im a mechanic. i wouldnt build it yourself if your not upto it, as you say its 500+ for pistons alone. when i build mine i done it with all vag parts. so it all adds up. oil pump is 110 pound i think. thrust bearings are 25 each and there is 5 of them. id have to find the recipt from vag to know the exact cost but it aint cheap to do.
i built mine with them pistons because id melted one of mine so went for strenth over performance. off boost it did seam to pull better if say you had 4 people in but it was also eaton'd once i rebuilt it so hard for me to tell the 1341 difference if you get me.
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i see what you mean, i would like to have a go at building an engine as you never learn if you dont have a go but maybe not with this one wich is going to cost a fair bit . i was going to go for this for the off boost as at the moment it seems a bit weedy but it is a 1.3 maybe ill just stick to what ive got till it goes pop or somthing thanks any way though lance
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The tests that I have video, before I go to drive and broke the shitty turbo:
http://vbox7.com/play:bf4bbb49 (http://vbox7.com/play:bf4bbb49)
http://vbox7.com/play:858b076e (http://vbox7.com/play:858b076e)
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hi
you can show more pictures of the throttle with the pressure switch, i dont no how to conect the wires
thanks
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... and the pictures of the throttle with the pressure switch:
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0208.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0210.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0211.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0212.jpg)
(http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp355/doc_j/G40/CIMG0214.jpg)
Who can explain to me what it serves?
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it takes the place of the full throttle switch in a turbo conversion because with a turbo you can get quite high boost pressure when not on full throttle.
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it takes the place of the full throttle switch in a turbo conversion because with a turbo you can get quite high boost pressure when not on full throttle.
Also the opposite you can have very low pressure (so no enrichment required) when WOT.
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yes that too!